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Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.
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gudimetla.balu
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be a constitutional law that a structural engineer should also be involved in the project, failed to do so, the firm should not be approved to go ahead with the construction. See, people who are not aware of the function process of the construction/design field in this country generally blame the engineer for all these failures. But sadly, the engineer capability has nothing to do with this as he is not even involved while taking very important decisions during the project.
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear All,

As I was busy, I could not take part in this discussion. As per the News item published in the Hindu, I believe that the said building is Illegal construction. Parts of the Hindu article is quoted below

"The building collapse has raked up a controversy over the functioning of the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation, as the entire building was found to be an illegal structure, undertaken in the name of renovating an existing two-storey building.


While permission was given for only renovation, the builder reportedly added three more storeys, apparently without strengthening the foundation. The municipal authorities, apart from issuing a couple of notices, failed to take any remedial measures, not even sealing the building.

A case under Section 304 of the Code of Criminal Procedure has been registered against the builder, Salim Butt, and his partner, both of whom have absconded. The municipal authorities have also suspended an inspector and sub-inspector of the estate department of the concerned municipal ward for failing to take action against the builder."


From the picture it seems that it was not designed by any structural engineer. I feel that it is a brick building. Such accidents will underline the importance of structural engineers. If I remember correctly, ACCE (India) was started only after similar accidents in Bangalore.

We need not bother about such non-engineered constructions. Of course it is the duty of Govts. or Corporations to enact laws such that only qualified engineers are allowed to design and construct such buildings.

Best wishes
Subramanian

gudimetla.balu wrote:
There should be a constitutional law that a structural engineer should also be involved in the project, failed to do so, the firm should not be approved to go ahead with the construction. See, people who are not aware of the function process of the construction/design field in this country generally blame the engineer for all these failures. But sadly, the engineer capability has nothing to do with this as he is not even involved while taking very important decisions during the project.
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Shri Rathi Steel
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:37 pm    Post subject: Role of TMT Steel Bars in preventing collapse of buildings Reply with quote

Dear All,

I would like to introduce myself as one of the leading manufacturer of reinforcement Steel in North India with a total production capacity of more than 1.2 million ton/annum of reinforcement steel and manufacture the same under the brand name of RATHI. We, the RATHI's have been the pioneers in the Indian construction steel industry in many things e.g. introducing TOR Steel in India, launching Cut to Length service in North India, using Natrual Gas Fired Re-heating Furnace etc. But I am am now feeling that our entire experience and intentions has been overshadowed by our competitors by simply misguiding the consumer/customer and at times selling them inferior/sub standard grade reinforcement Steel at cheaper prices. Infact lot of manufacturers are supplying ribbed bar as reinforcement Steel in Punjab specially Mandi Gobindgarh area.

I have been personally following up this post in SEFI regarding the building collapse in Ahmedabad and agree with most of the reasons specified by the members in their replies. But I would like to add that another major reason for collapses is the fact that in most cases the consumer/customer is actually uneducated with respect to the basic structural engineering, the importance of using good quality reinforcement steel and also the problems which might arise by not adhering to the fundamentals/engineering. E.g. i recently met a developer in Noida who was making 25 floor residential towers suitable to house approx 1000 people. I had gone to explain him the concept of cut to length reinforcement and also the advantages/savings it offers. But to my surprise the company was actually using Fe415 grade instead of Fe500 even though the drawings were designed as per Fe500. What even irritated me more was the fact that the owner of the company was fully aware of this fact and was just keeping silent because he was able to save some money on the steel. He asked me what is the problem in doing the aforesaid. I clearly told him that you are playing with the lives of the 1000 people you are expecting to live in your complex. I am sure there are many more developers like him in this country. In fact what i feel is that some of them are just trying to be too clever and looking only at the financial side but others are just being fooled/influenced by people as they are uneducated/unaware of the fundamentals and products.

Therefore i would really like if any of the members can guide me on the advantages of using Fe500 grade over Fe415 especially with respect to Earthquakes. This will really help us in educating some of our more responsible and potential consumers as a number of them are choosing local brands over RATHI due to the simple reason that they want cheaper steel. We maintain a certain standard of quality in our product and cant even think of downgrading it. As a matter of fact we are only producing Fe500 grade for the last 2 years.

Regards,

Dhruv Rathi
Director
Shri Rathi Steel Limited
Noida
+91 9811444992
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hameed mohamed younus
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:48 pm    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

I don’t understand why they are not using AAC blccks to reduce weight and thermal insulation saving energy of cooling and heating  
The selling price for the AAC block in Delhi is only 2400/- per cubic meter

Hameed


From: bharatthej [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:34 PM
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.


Very well said mr.sanjay.i am opening a startup in structural
consultancy and i am severly facing this difficulty.local muncipal
licensed str.engineers quote too less.now for marketing im forced to
offer architectural service too.

On 1/31/11, Sanjay Jayaswal wrote:    
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rajni7.mehta
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Joined: 07 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 3:53 pm    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

To avoid such type of structure collapse, to educate andissue the license for work in construction industry such as welder grade certificate in fabrication industry. It will helpful tominimise the structure collapse.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 4:35 AM, gautam chattopadhyay <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]  people like to economise on structural design i.e, saving money by not going to the structure designers. A fee of 1.5 to 2% towards a structure designer looks very big to the building owners and builders but when a building collapse like Ahmedabad, Delhi etc, 100% is lost. A lesson these people should learn. In 5000 BC king Hamuraby of Egypt wrote in law: if a building collapse constructor would be hanged. The clause is said to be earliest code of practice in civil engineering. It seems we should re-enct Hamuraby's code after 7000 years. At Hamuraby's time buildings used to collapse due to ignorance while now those are collapsing due to negligance.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Sanjay Jayaswal forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:

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mir.m.hussain1 at gmai...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 5:03 pm    Post subject: Structural audit Reply with quote

Dear All

I think we should adopt the structural review of all multistored  
buildings by the authorites before they give permission.  I am  
presently working in Dubai where all the structural review is done by  
municipality

India need to change the building approval system



Mir M Hussain
Sr. Structural Engineer
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behold
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 7:12 pm    Post subject: MAL PRACTICES GOING ON IN FIELD Reply with quote

Myself i had surveyed local scenerio going in jamnagar,gujarat. what here is going on in construction industry is that people had no free thinking towards there residency consiousness of safety they just put all the faith and give power to decide to  there consultancy engineer who belongs to his cast or as per his popularity. now engineer who is supervising consults to structure engineer office which may be in jamnagar if he is charging less and also provide bribe to him or the one who is located in outside district,they provide plan and no section to structure engineer, in turn structure engineer also never care to ask for the same for better design and they just provide design as usually very economical of about 8 no of bars of 12mm in 230mmx 460mm size of column in g+5 storey building. now if anyone gives design with actual data and procedure he is rejected by engineer and owner too and sometime worker of centering and shuttering is also responsible for rejection of structure designer because centering and shuttering worker has no shuttering materials to copup with the dimensioins and formwork for the rcc structure.
whatever i had suggested is not tell in vain but what is going on in jamnagar and near by district like rajkot, bhavnagar,junagadh the same conditon.
and that is true.
many time i used to say engineer and owner for there faulty decision that if by fact in future your son,daughter,wife or grandson buried under these building than what u want to prove by providing such layman structural design to your building though it cost only about 1 or 2 percent. but i just get many time answer that who knows what will happen in future.
one of the main reason is also that engineers in charge of goverment body are found fully corrupt to such extent that they even dont know where the building is in which area and they just give permission to that bulding. for there payment.
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Surendra S
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Joined: 25 Sep 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:46 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

i agree, we always wake up when such thing happens. see now the government is cracking down on oil mafia after the merciless killing of deputy collector.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 2:38 PM, ALPESH PATEL <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           I agree with you.
We should take up this issue to all Structural Forum.
But one thing i want to tell you we  always talked about when
Incident happened.
So consistantaly we should be in touch with each other
So that one can learnt so many thing from each other.
Regards



ALPESH PATEL
B.E.Civil.MIE(I),FIV
Chartered Engineer(I)
Mob : 9426591873, 9586740048
e-mail : alpesh@patelassociates.co.in (alpesh@patelassociates.co.in)


From: Vinay Kumar [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: 31 January 2011 14:05
To: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



We must take up such issues in all the forums.
I intend to do that with BIS and the local authorities when I get a chance.
Vinay Kumar

From: Sanjay Jayaswal [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: 31 January 2011 12:27

To: announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org) (announcement@sefindia.org (announcement@sefindia.org))
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



In Delhi NCR, only Ghaziabad Development Authority(GDA) ask for submission of structural drawings and calculations duly vetted by any of IIT. but it is well known here that these drawings are not construction drawings. these are submitted for approval purpose only simply as formalty. actual construction drawings are totaly different from the drawings which were vetted by IITs.


On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Surendra S forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))))> wrote:
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Seshadri
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Hi Engineers, are not structural collapses the final symptoms of failure in the system of fixing responsibilities for lapses and meting out deserving level of punishments, unlike in Hammurabi’s regime? The first building collapse that I had learnt the details of was Gangaram's building at Gandhi Nagar in Bangalore in 80s. From then to this day, has anyone been made responsible and  'punished' for failures and collapses of structures - be it the infamous Mondovi bridge or the recent collapse of Delhi Metro's elevated track or the foot bridge built for CWG. Hardly anyone is ever punished even for serious lapses in any field - drugs, surgery, train collisions, liquor tragedies, food adulteration, capsising boats and the list could go on. Hammurabi made laws and implemented because he was serious about citizen's wellbeing and Singapore does it for the same reason. In Singapore, if water were to leak in a flat in 3 years, the developer is held responsible to fix it; the builder could loose license if negligence can be established; every structure is inspected for signs of failures like cracks every five years by a registered Structural Engineer and repairs undertaken as recommended; compare that with thousands of structures in any Indian city. Either laws & punishment or our own sense of pride in our works and pride in showing our creations and contributions to our children could stop this rot. Then, every wing of construction service - structural engineers, geo tech engineers, waterproofers, concrete technologists, etc, would be employed at appropriate market price resulting in improvement of the situation. Meanwhile, we continue to take satisfaction by airing views in these platforms on news-making collapses and continue to ignore water ingress / leakages in structures, corroding rebars, cracks appearing in structural members, etc all of which can lead to collapses. Are we, in India, game for such an implementation of quality standards in constructions either through law or through conscientious professionalism or better, through both?
 
On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:35 PM, gautam chattopadhyay <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

[quote]  people like to economise on structural design i.e, saving money by not going to the structure designers. A fee of 1.5 to 2% towards a structure designer looks very big to the building owners and builders but when a building collapse like Ahmedabad, Delhi etc, 100% is lost. A lesson these people should learn. In 5000 BC king Hamuraby of Egypt wrote in law: if a building collapse constructor would be hanged. The clause is said to be earliest code of practice in civil engineering. It seems we should re-enct Hamuraby's code after 7000 years. At Hamuraby's time buildings used to collapse due to ignorance while now those are collapsing due to negligance.

On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:27 PM, Sanjay Jayaswal forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:

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tanpriti
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:45 am    Post subject: Building Collaspe in Ahmedabad! Reply with quote

I have been in the struct. engg. profession for last 20 years, especially in high rise buildings working mainly outside India.
I hail from kolkata. When I built my own house (5 storey) in 2000, I did the design myself with full earthquake design. When the dwgs were sent for approval and local contractor employed, everyone laughed at me. Everyone said these sort of design is waste of money and no one does it here. Too much over designed. And above all this, I had to pay the approving engineers extra to get the plan passed (note that everying thing was in complaince with the requirement). kolkata is in quite high seismic zone as per IS code (& also UBC) and since no earthquake has happened in past couple of decades, no one believes something of that kind can happen. Even the structural details required for passing the plan is ridiculous. Some typ section which is most cases is a copy of a copy of some previous details.
Imagine, I had to employ an engineer and pay him to get the plan passed because he is enlisted in the municipality. When I checked how to get enlisted, it came down to whom I know in the upper level of the approving authority and not what knowledge and experience I have. With due respect to these engineers, I can say I have done design of buildings (some of them are in the world tallest list), which they may have no clue how to design.
Bottom line is play by the rules, doesn't matter what you know. India is highly populated and collaspe of building is one way of keeping the population in check (sarcastic comment).
Someone has commented to impliment a clause that, hang the contractor (and I suggest the engineer as well) if a building collaspes.
No one can give 100% gaurantee that the building will stand in case of seismic (even it is designed for it), but I am sure my house has a better chance of survival!!!!!
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