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Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.
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Sanjay Jayaswal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:06 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

recently the FAR of NCR and delhi is increased. all builders having underconstruction projects are dying to increase the number of floors even the foundations and several floors are built. many are doing it without even informing structural consultants, and many are forcing them to get a way for it.
if you deny to do the exercise, some of our fellow practisioner is ready to do the job. in that very case, who is to blame ??


On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:59 PM, drnsmani <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear All,

As I was busy, I could not take part in this discussion. As per the News item published in the Hindu, I believe that the said building is Illegal construction. Parts of the Hindu article is quoted below

"The building collapse has raked up a controversy over the functioning of the Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation, as the entire building was found to be an illegal structure, undertaken in the name of renovating an existing two-storey building.


While permission was given for only renovation, the builder reportedly added three more storeys, apparently without strengthening the foundation. The municipal authorities, apart from issuing a couple of notices, failed to take any remedial measures, not even sealing the building.

A case under Section 304 of the Code of Criminal Procedure has been registered against the builder, Salim Butt, and his partner, both of whom have absconded. The municipal authorities have also suspended an inspector and sub-inspector of the estate department of the concerned municipal ward for failing to take action against the builder."


From the picture it seems that it was not designed by any structural engineer. I feel that it is a brick building. Such accidents will underline the importance of structural engineers. If I remember correctly, ACCE (India) was started only after similar accidents in Bangalore.

We need not bother about such non-engineered constructions. Of course it is the duty of Govts. or Corporations to enact laws such that only qualified engineers are allowed to design and construct such buildings.

Best wishes
Subramanian

gudimetla.balu wrote:  There should be a constitutional law that a structural engineer should also be involved in the project, failed to do so, the firm should not be approved to go ahead with the construction. See, people who are not aware of the function process of the construction/design field in this country generally blame the engineer for all these failures. But sadly, the engineer capability has nothing to do with this as he is not even involved while taking very important decisions during the project.







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Seshadri
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:41 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

We have been really lucky in that, the country has some of the greatest and finest engineers in the world; only this has prevented too many collapses, for, most approving authorities and inspecting authrities seem to consider all factors extraneous to professional technical assessment of designs and construction. I think, if it were a case of majority callous engineers or  malleable ones, the structures that survived a few years would have made news!
No amount of thanks would suffice to express the gratitude of people towards the Civil Engineering fraternity - because, we have dependable bridges, sturdy buildings and safe nuclear power plants. These watchful proffessionals alone - not any laws or government approving bodies - can ensure more such structures and avoid future catastrophes.
 
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:

[quote]  recently the FAR of NCR and delhi is increased. all builders having underconstruction projects are dying to increase the number of floors even the foundations and several floors are built. many are doing it without even informing structural consultants, and many are forcing them to get a way for it.
if you deny to do the exercise, some of our fellow practisioner is ready to do the job. in that very case, who is to blame ??


On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:59 PM, drnsmani forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:

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Er.Vithal Jadhav
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:55 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Dear Sanjay,
I being a structural engineer designing the Building/Bridge and Roads designs of KPWD since 1984, I feel your saying is100% true. I fully agree with your openion.
Er.V.H.Jadhav


From: Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org>
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Sent: Mon, 31 January, 2011 6:08:54 PM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.

who is going to pay? even designers are ready to 50paise per square foot
We are not in a position to increase our rate because any one can call himself as a structural consultant- from Diploma holder to Ph.D., from a person who is having a firm to some one doing part time jobs. Several Professors, Govt. employees, and other also do consultancy. Moreover some of the part time persons even sit in the Architect’s office and finish the job. For them a couple of thousand rupees are more than sufficient. Only if someone starts a consulting firm, they will know the difficulty of paying to the fellow engineer. We now have the problem of Service tax. Many clients feel that it has to be paid by the consultants!!

Many clients pay about Re.1.00 to Rs. 1.50 per sq.ft., and ask for Earthquake analysis and detailing, calculation report and 10 copies of the drawing (which should be made using AUTOCAD), and frequent site visit!! (Architects pay very less and ask for lump sum rate!) Several of them do not pay the last bill. They won’t pay any advance and will pay 20-25% when you submit the foundation drawing (that is when you have completed all your work).


On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Vishal_Desai forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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pramath
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:46 pm    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

I agree with the views. All should give effort to build the best only at any cost.

On 1 February 2011 05:12, mir.m.hussain1 at gmai... <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear All

I think we should adopt the structural review of all multistored
buildings by the authorites before they give permission. I am
presently working in Dubai where all the structural review is done by
municipality

India need to change the building approval system



Mir M Hussain
Sr. Structural Engineer
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vinaykgurukar
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

hi

its better to charge Rs five to ten per sqft, if they give do it or
not. thats it.



On 2/1/11, Er.Vithal Jadhav <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
Dear Sanjay,
I being a structural engineer designing the Building/Bridge and Roads
designs of KPWD since 1984, I feel your saying is100% true. I fully agree
with your openion.
Er.V.H.Jadhav


From: Sanjay Jayaswal <forum@sefindia.org>
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Sent: Mon, 31 January, 2011 6:08:54 PM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in
Ahmeda.

who is going to pay? even designers are ready to 50paise per square foot
We are not in a position to increase our rate because any one can call
himself as a structural consultant- from Diploma holder to Ph.D., from a
person who is having a firm to some one doing part time jobs. Several
Professors, Govt. employees, and other also do consultancy. Moreover some of
the part time persons even sit in the Architect’s office and finish the job.
For them a couple of thousand rupees are more than sufficient. Only if
someone starts a consulting firm, they will know the difficulty of paying to
the fellow engineer. We now have the problem of Service tax. Many clients
feel that it has to be paid by the consultants!!

Many clients pay about Re.1.00 to Rs. 1.50 per sq.ft., and ask for
Earthquake analysis and detailing, calculation report and 10 copies of the
drawing (which should be made using AUTOCAD), and frequent site visit!!
(Architects pay very less and ask for lump sum rate!) Several of them do not
pay the last bill. They won’t pay any advance and will pay 20-25% when you
submit the foundation drawing (that is when you have completed all your
work).


On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 6:04 PM, Vishal_Desai forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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Hemalmodi
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:08 pm    Post subject: 55th response Reply with quote

Let’s stop preaching to the choir!!

Everyone here agrees that the construction industry needs a reform and despite the events and resistance that we have recently seen in Tunisia & Egypt, I am yet to see similar protest or even opinion articles in major newspapers, magazines, blogs or any news media for that matter. Do we have a short term memory as a nation or is there any other reason why there is an outcry and flurry of activity after any such event that eventually dies out without any major revision?
If this is to continue, then I feel that it is a sure sign that the history will repeat itself and we or our next generation will have to be prepared to face the consequences.

The two critical issues are education and adoption/implementation of the appropriate standards. We need a society of civil engineers and a structural engineering organization that will provide recommendation to BIS, similar to what ASCE/SEI/NCSEA with local chapters like SEAOC that form a committee to study and recommend changes to ICC. Further, there is a need for checks & balances, so we can hold appropriate personnel responsible for design/construction. The municipal corporation needs to hire senior engineers and train fresh diploma or graduate degree holders in the plan check & review process. Then there is a need for a third-part building inspection companies that can hire and train technicians to ensure that the construction is per the design documents and should issue citation for any discrepancies. The contractor should hire some engineers to interpret the construction documents and coordinate with the engineers during the construction. The structural engineer should perform occasional unannounced site visits and write up a report also called “structural observation”. All the documents and coordination shall be done with the help of the architect that should take the responsibility of ensuring that everyone involved is performing the requisite due diligence and adhere to the project schedule. The architect should also be aware of the fire code and they should address the entry & exit requirements to ensure that people can exit the building during a catastrophic event to minimize the loss of life. Further, a peer review by any structural engineering company should be mandatory for high rises or any high occupancy structures (like stadiums) and critical facilities (like hospitals & schools). There is enough room for diploma holders, geotechnical & civil engineers, as site engineers, building inspectors, construction management staff & plan check personnel at the municipalities while we leave the actual design to people with appropriate education & experience.

I was surprised to see that some people in this forum still believe that there is some huge factor of safety built in the code, while the truth is that there is a small factor of safety when the loads are unknown, but not enough to cover the blunders we have seen in the recent past. The old structures that were citied earlier have survived because they are over designed, and if you wish to build your house with 3 feet thick walls and create a fort for yourself with lime & mortar, be my guest. But please do not put the general population at risk with unreinforced brick buildings. Most of the buildings are still standing because we have been fortunate to have very few major earthquakes. The only unfortunate result of this scenario is that the people don’t realize that importance of ductile detailing that could potentially save the lives and is the cheapest insurance one can buy. The developed nations have never missed an opportunity to learn from such engineering failures or natural disasters and you can notice that with the immediate changes in the US codes after Tacoma Narrows Bridge or Hyatt Regency hotel walkway collapse or every major seismic event from 1906 San Francisco earthquake to 1994 Northridge earthquake. Even anti-terrorism standards have been adopted based on the events at the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building & World Trade Center.

The fees charged by the engineers in India are pathetic and one should realize that we get what we pay for. As a proof, you might want to review that the high profile projects are invariably awarded to foreign architects & engineers while the engineers in the country suffer financially or leave the country for greener pastures. Let’s stop competing and undercutting our fellow engineers and understand that there is a lot more involved in creating a safe built environment. Stable and safe basic infrastructure will lead us to prosperity and everyone needs to work towards the bigger goal and raise the standards of construction.

Personally, I am more than willing to work in my homeland, but the lack of rules and regulation and further the absence of the implementation of the current standards is the reason for the “brain drain” as the media would like to call it.

Note to admin: Please move this to "general discussion", so people are not bombarded with emails whenever there is a post on this topic.
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Engineer
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject: Professional Body for Structural Engineers Similar to CA Reply with quote

We must have single Institution of Professional/Chartered Structural Engineers similar to Chartered Accountants in India.
Each individual inspiring chartered account goes under in-depth training/ work experience and passes final level of examination.
The fresh civil engineers must registered to such body to get there first employment.
We must recruit only fresh engineer, who have such registration.
During his first 3-5 Years, He works under direct supervision of chartered/professional structural engineer on following aspects of design
1.    Stability / Load Transfer / Structural Systems
2.    Initial Sizing / Concept Design
3.    Understanding about Material ( Concrete/ Steel/ Prestressed Concrete/composite)
4.    Constructability / Contracts / Planning  / Quality
After three – five years experience, He will undergo Professional Interview through Panel of three Professional/charted Engineers. Once Professional Interview is cleared, He has to go through written test.
If we start similar system to IStrucTE today, We may have fruits in future and the whole professional community will be benefited. The system will not work without individual contribution today; We are directly/indirectly responsible for our present situation.

The above concept was conceptualized by Concrete Expert of Ambuja Cement ( Foundations Ambuja Knowledge Initiative) long back and unfortunately He expired last Year.
We should not forget the contribution of our contractors/consultants and Engineers in bringing India to the worlds 3rd economic power.
We must recognize the Contribution of few leading Cement Manufacture (Ambuja/ACC)  to better work force for Construction Industry.
Hemant Gor


Last edited by Engineer on Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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behold
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:23 pm    Post subject: To all sefian to rise and to conduct some practical Reply with quote

i mean to say that we can start a step towards these for better future in structural engineering, i welcome to all first discuss the major cause to increase the importance to structural engineer to goverment/public/civil engineer/contractore etc.
we all sefian can provide feedback to centeral goverment to have a recent change in civil engineering so as to increase the important of structural engineer.

i can write more thing but lets us all thing and do something better.
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suraj
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 8:23 am    Post subject: Engineers & designs Reply with quote

Engineers & designs

Well. All has been said but, the root cause of the problem is the municipality or the legal building permit authority called by whatever name it may be. It is the responsibility of the municipality or such other body to demand all structural calculations & design details at the time of receiving the building permit application. Should one go through building bye laws, authority is well authorized so to demand but, the fact is that they all are greased heavily. Architects manage signatures & all provisions are avoided. In all departments Chief Engineers are basically authorized for the application scrutiny by virtue of which authority, they should demand such data from the architects both at Building Permit application as well as at the time of Occupation Certificate application. Should these requirements be operated, structural engineers would come into action automatically. An owner cannot understand the difference between the Architect & an Engineer due to reasons. They understand Architect & Engineer same person due to lack of awareness. I can call the term to be used as Building Engineer rather than Structural Engineer since, what you people understand design work only under SE responsibility while this is not a truth internationally. Structural engineer is also responsible for works execution controls.<xml><o></o>

Regards<o></o>

_________________
Thanks & Warm Regards
IntPE(India)Suraj Singh FIE Civil
Engineering & Arbitration

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