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news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012
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gau_tam
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:52 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

the construction system ,involves semiskilled,even unskilled labours,particularly during concreting works. It  is really not possible for a structural engineer to supervise the entire  concreting works. So.how an engineer can be charged ,without detailed technical investigation.  


On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 7:55 PM, chander.pawa <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           It was a shocking news, without any technical investigation and consultation with an experienced and suitable independent person a decision like this should have been taken. I feel that now onwards the designer should keep a tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff. The attitude of the Labour and supervisory staff needs complete change and Chalta ha! Itne we kuch nahin hota! has to be wiped out completely.
     



     


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:55 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

really very disturbing news, I many times queried with various insurance cos regarding professional indemnity policy not found suitable cover or no policy with cos. In my view it can give relief to professional.

shailesh agrawal
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MAHAKUL
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:24 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

Hi All.

Bridge collapse in Srinagar Garhwal on March 25, 2012 that claimed seven lives and injured more than 25. After three and half years of the incident, outcomes of such things that arresting designers is not digesting enough.  
Post construction, all the structures must be periodically investigated  
  • For the behavior of the structure, like soundness of the structure.
  • Vibration and resilience frequency that the structure can withstand in reduction of time frames
  • Periodic changes in Code practices for Earthquake and other standard practices not implemented for old structures must be made a regulation by the government to reanalyze and implement to old structures.
  • Organizations like SEFI/Society of Engineers must be strengthened to verify each structure by deploying structural engineers and submit reports to local Municipality in each City/State.

Regards
Malay Mahakul


From: K B NEELAKANTAN <forum@sefindia.org>
Sent: 08 September 2015 18:29
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012  


It is shocking to learn about the arrest of Prof Vipul Prakash .Usually committees are constituted to investigate the causes of failure of any major structure. Only after final conclusion extreme steps are taken. The structural design and proof checking records should be available in the records and the presence of Structural Designer / Proof Checker is not a must during checking the details as the records would speak themselves. In the present case it appears that the the reason for arrest is for not responding to the summons. Hope he would have got bail by this time. Let us all unite in resisting such raw deals to the structural designers.

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:16 PM, alpa_sheth forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:42 am    Post subject: Re: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

alpa_sheth wrote:
Hi All,

Completely agree with Vivek and Prof A R Chandrasekaran.  We know how in some of the bridge failures Vivek has pointed out the real designers escaped punishment and blamed some underlings who went to jail instead.

Let's look at the legal issue. It is not clear to me why they should arrest someone who is only charged with something and not yet proved guilty. But I am also wondering why he did not attend the court  summons. Also, why did Prof Vipul Prakash  (who is a v good engineer and was my classmate at Berkeley) not take anticipatory  bail (a non-bailable offence means that bail cannot be got from police station; only a judge/judicial magistrate can give it) from the judiciary?

Perhaps he was not guided well. I think the IIT should give legal support and advice as he is their employee. After all, it reflects on the Institute too.

I am assuming that as we speak he is already out on bail. But my advice to all practising engineers-

a) Check all  drawings yourself or a trusted person in your team with at least 15 years experience.

b) If there is a problem, get legal advice ASAP! Pl do have a strong legal advisor as part of your permanent group of consultants.  Get your agreements vetted by them. Also discuss with them in case of disputes with clients.


I am beginning to believe that a good lawyer is as important to us as a good CA!!

regards,
Alpa



abhy_vivek wrote:
The email below is really upsetting and frightening, too; it also points out many other things as below :-


1) Just being good Engineer / Teacher is not sufficient, we should be firmly aware about the Legal tricks and tactics (especially that go in Indian courts); and never hire a 'Busy' lawyer. Hire a lawyer which is sincere for time and aware about recent legal provisions.


2) Regarding the bridge failure and the series of enquiries we all are aware about the recent collapses of bridges - at Surat, Kolkata (Ulta Danga bridge), DMRC and Chennai LG collapses, and how the engineers escaped and passed on the blames to others.


3) Lack of Unity among 'Structural Engineering' is getting exposed time and again. If something goes wrong with 'Doctors' or 'Lawyers' or 'Taxi/Rickshaw drivers' they all come on the road, united . . . have we such action from Structural Engineers any time, in any Nation . . . we believe that Structural Engineer's are Intellectual and clean people among the Civil Engineering fraternity . . . but let's not allow others to take disadvantage of this . . .


Apart from Prof. VP there are many cases where Sincere and intellectual professors were arrested by local corporations (for example for Bhuj Earthquake). . . why structural engineers / professors often become scapegoat of the polluted system !!!


Let's once again all of us come together and on urgent basis 'sign' a letter of protest and circulate it online, and present it before court through representatives of SEFI, located in Roorkee by Friday 11th Sept'15. Let's all ensure that no innocent structural engineer suffers because of loop holes / mistakes in the system !


Hoping for the Best


Vivek Abhyankar
Mumbai


prof.arc wrote:
It was shocking to me to read from TOI article that Prof. Vipul Prakash of IIT-Roorkee has been arrested.
I know him personally, as also his family. Prof. VP has brilliant credentials - apart from being a topper in BE,
he did his Ph.D  with distinction from University of California at Berkeley, USA.

The bridge had failed apparently due to faulty construction but to blame the designer is unkindest cut of all
The bridge had no live load /no earthquake at that time and design cannot be blamed as he must have used
well tested commercial software or his own

probably, he was ill advised by his lawyers not to heed to original summons. That is why he must have got
non-bailable arrest warrant now.

I think our Forum should debate the role of designer and what precautions one has to take
like never avoid summons to appear in court

I wish he gets relief very soon

His father, my former colleague, Prof. Anand Prakash must be greatly upset as also well wishers like me
So many of students of father and son must be members of SEFI

Let me hope that it is a very temporary set back

I have absolutely no doubt about Prof. VP's ability as a designer

ARC


Is there any quality control check ? only designer cannot be held responsible. I am a structural engineer working in Gulf. Here the law is the consultant along with contractor is responsible for any mishaps. The consultant is not only the designer but he has to supervise and check the quality control and keep all the records including approval of materials as per specifications. He has given power to have  full control over contractor regarding quality control. So if anything goes wrong the consultant is also held responsible.
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abhy_vivek
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Er. Chander Pawa - "I feel that now onwards the  designer should keep a tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff". . .

. . . good to note above opinion of at least one SEFIN. I keep saying, requesting, shouting, commanding about the same at various forums (sefi, linked-in, whats-app lectures and workshops, papers etc) that the REAL ENGINEERING STARTS AT SITE AND not in design office, so Designer shouldn't keep seating in A/C design office, sipping a few cups of coffee, playing with staad model . . . believing that the 'Contractors' will follow his design in TOTO. . . in my past sixteen years I viewed at least 50 major minor accidents at site, but alertness and vigilance could prove what and where the site went wrong.

. . . I am now completely aware about the tricks and tactics played by the various agencies (workers, foremen, section-in-charges, clients etc).

STRUCTURAL ENGINEER MUST VISIT SITE REGULARLY AND KEEP AN EYE ON IMPLEMENTATION OF HIS OWN DESIGN.

     

chander.pawa wrote:
. . . I feel that now onwards the  designer should keep a tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff . . ..
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sandeepmonica3
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 6:06 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

Dear All   I have opportunity to work in various fields since 1984 i graduated IN CIVIL ENGINEERING. Later i did  ME in structures.   Head of structural department New Delhi Municipal Council New Delhi  Vigilance department All India Institute of Medical Sciences  Design Engineer for more than 2000 crore Hydro Power unit (NJPC now call SJVN)  Certified structural engineer for DUBAI Municipality  Site In charge of Structural Issues for 1453 feet tall Tower (Plot 29-30 now call stand point )next  to BURG KHILAPHA   In nut shell i am saying i have worked as   hard core structural designed looked after site work  worked shoulder to shoulder with legal and police and politicians  With is back ground I very strongly stress i again say stress following   FORMS LIKE THIS MUST HOLD HAND OF ENGINEERS WHEN THEY ARE IN WEEK POSITION OF THEIR LIFE  AND THIS MUST BE HOME VERY STRONGLY IN MINDED OF INDIVIDUAL   The methods must be debated and than implemented.   sandeep  On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 19:03:17 +0530 "alpa_sheth"  wrote >             Hi All, >  > Completely agree with Vivek and Prof A R Chandrasekaran. We know how in some of the bridge failures  Vivek has pointed out the real designers escaped punishment and blamed some underlings who went to jail  instead.  >  > Let's look at the legal issue. It is not clear to me why they should arrest someone who is only charged  with something and not yet proved guilty. But I am also wondering why he did not attend the court  summons. Also, why did Prof Vipul Prakash (who is a v good engineer and was my classmate at Berkeley)  not take anticipatory bail (a non-bailable offence means that bail cannot be got from police station;  only a judge/judicial magistrate can give it) from the judiciary?  >  > Perhaps he was not guided well. I think the IIT should give legal support and advice as he is their  employee. After all, it reflects on the Institute too.  >  > I am assuming that as we speak he is already out on bail. But my advice to all practising engineers-  >  > a) Check all drawings yourself or a trusted person in your team with at least 15 years experience.  >  > b) If there is a problem, get legal advice ASAP! Pl do have a strong legal advisor as part of your  permanent group of consultants. Get your agreements vetted by them. Also discuss with them in case of  disputes with clients.  >  >  > I am beginning to believe that a good lawyer is as important to us as a good CA!! >  > regards, > Alpa  >  >  >  >       abhy_vivek wrote:                The email below is really upsetting and frightening,  too; it also points out many other things as below :- >  >  > 1) Just being good Engineer / Teacher is not sufficient, we should be firmly aware about the Legal  tricks and tactics (especially that go in Indian courts); and never hire a 'Busy' lawyer. Hire a lawyer  which is sincere for time and aware about recent legal provisions. >  >  > 2) Regarding the bridge failure and the series of enquiries we all are aware about the recent collapses  of bridges - at Surat, Kolkata (Ulta Danga bridge), DMRC and Chennai LG collapses, and how the  engineers escaped and passed on the blames to others. >  >  > 3) Lack of Unity among 'Structural Engineering' is getting exposed time and again. If something goes  wrong with 'Doctors' or 'Lawyers' or 'Taxi/Rickshaw drivers' they all come on the road, united . . .  have we such action from Structural Engineers any time, in any Nation . . . we believe that Structural  Engineer's are Intellectual and clean people among the Civil Engineering fraternity . . . but let's not  allow others to take disadvantage of this . . .  >  >  > Apart from Prof. VP there are many cases where Sincere and intellectual professors were arrested by  local corporations (for example for Bhuj Earthquake). . . why structural engineers / professors often  become scapegoat of the polluted system !!! >  >  > Let's once again all of us come together and on urgent basis 'sign' a letter of protest and circulate  it online, and present it before court through representatives of SEFI, located in Roorkee by Friday  11th Sept'15. Let's all ensure that no innocent structural engineer suffers because of loop holes /  mistakes in the system ! >  >  > Hoping for the Best  >  >  > Vivek Abhyankar > Mumbai >  >  >       prof.arc wrote:                It was shocking to me to read from TOI article that  Prof. Vipul Prakash of IIT-Roorkee has been arrested. > I know him personally, as also his family. Prof. VP has brilliant credentials - apart from being a  topper in BE,  > he did his Ph.D with distinction from University of California at Berkeley, USA. >  > The bridge had failed apparently due to faulty construction but to blame the designer is unkindest cut  of all > The bridge had no live load /no earthquake at that time and design cannot be blamed as he must have  used  > well tested commercial software or his own >  > probably, he was ill advised by his lawyers not to heed to original summons. That is why he must have  got > non-bailable arrest warrant now. >  > I think our Forum should debate the role of designer and what precautions one has to take > like never avoid summons to appear in court >  > I wish he gets relief very soon >  > His father, my former colleague, Prof. Anand Prakash must be greatly upset as also well wishers like me > So many of students of father and son must be members of SEFI >  > Let me hope that it is a very temporary set back >  > I have absolutely no doubt about Prof. VP's ability as a designer >  > ARC                 > >  >  > --

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:54 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

9th September 2015

Let's not go off the deep end. The esteemed professors were apparently arrested for disregard of Court summons. Why they did so is a mystery. Anyway, good to know that they are out on bail.

I have always held the view that teachers should not be directly involved in commercial design. This detracts from their teaching activities, for which they are paid, and paid handsomely too. Their role should be limited -- to act advisers to a client or to a consultant, or to do proof checking.

Indrajit Barua


From: prof.arc <forum@sefindia.org>
Sent: Wed, 09 Sep 2015 05:02:37
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012
           It was shocking to me to read from TOI article that Prof. Vipul Prakash of IIT-Roorkee has been arrested.
I know him personally, as also his family. Prof. VP has brilliant credentials - apart from being a topper in BE,
he did his Ph.D with distinction from University of California at Berkeley, USA.

The bridge had failed apparently due to faulty construction but to blame the designer is unkindest cut of all
The bridge had no live load /no earthquake at that time and design cannot be blamed as he must have used
well tested commercial software or his own

probably, he was ill advised by his lawyers not to heed to original summons. That is why he must have got
non-bailable arrest warrant now.

I think our Forum should debate the role of designer and what precautions one has to take
like never avoid summons to appear in court

I wish he gets relief very soon

His father, my former colleague, Prof. Anand Prakash must be greatly upset as also well wishers like me
So many of students of father and son must be members of SEFI

Let me hope that it is a very temporary set back

I have absolutely no doubt about Prof. VP's ability as a designer

ARC

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 4:08 pm    Post subject: reg arrest of IIT Professors Reply with quote

It is sad that IIT professors are arrested.

Apparently the bridge collapsed during construction, which means it is not the fault of
the Consultant. The neither the professor who proof checked the design is no way responsible nor the person who designed the bridge is responsible.

However , as per the newspaper reports, the arrest was because they did not appear before the Court in response to summons, which is routine procedure  during such circumstances.

Unfortunately the duties of various personnel are not detailed in the building codes. This leads to loopholes. Further the Consulting Engineer is the weakest link in the chain, compared to contractors / builders who are much powerful.

The Consulting engineers must come together and there must a serious effort
to find way through this. Otherwise for any building accident the consulting engineers would  be behind the bars.

We have the most corrupt police system over here. I remember words of Mr. Mark Tully on BBC when Ms Indira Gandhi was assassinated, he said " British have left most corrupt policing system when they left India" which is unfortunately true till today.


Last edited by kasahakari on Fri Sep 11, 2015 9:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: reg arrest of IIT Professors Reply with quote

                    LET'S EDUCATE OURSELVES WITH CONSTRUCTION LAWS and PROCEDURES


DESIGN ADEQUACY :- The Designer of the said bridge should submit a proof of previous experience in bridge design, planning and a valid licence to undertake the said work. (. . .which all of us believe, that must be available).


MATERAIL ADEQUACY :- The Client and contractor should open out the material test results (concrete, steel, PT cables, soil etc) and conformity of the same with valid acceptance criteria.


CONSTRUCTION ADEQUACY :- The contractor should open out the 'erection method statements' followed in this bridge, inclusive of the 'Planned Equipment' vs. 'Actual equipment' available equipment at site, their maintenance records, certificates of crane operators. Whether the 'Planned Method' of bridge erection was Screened and vetted by the 'Competent' engineer inclusive of designer.


SUPERVISION ADEQUACY :-
  
    a) Adequacy of Design Proof Checking :- The competency, past experience, valid licence by the proof checking agency. List of comments given by the Design proof checker to main designer. 'Comment Closure Report' by the main designer on the comments given by Proof checker.


   b) Adequacy of PMC / construction execution agency :- The various site records demanded by the PMC, time to time, comments by PMC, and adherence of all the records, procedures with the 'Contract Document'.


CONTRACTUAL ADEQUACY :-


The contract conditions for design, approval, revisions. PMC and construction etc.
The Contract conditions stating 'Consultant's Liabilities' and Responsibilities, including 'clause on Exclusions'.
Clause on 'Design Insurance'.


When all this documents are studied in 'Syncro' (like a jig-saw puzzle) then will bring out all the Facts !!


On behalf of the originals designers, (if they are members of any established body) these records may be asked before the court. Event under RTI the same will have to be provided by court on Top priority !! (. . . N.B. :- now a days we see common men misusing the RTI for trivial things like, earnings of film stars etc.. !!)


Anyway, this once again points out that 'Just Having Excellence' in FEM, Dynamics, Neural-Networks etc. is not sufficient, we must have a sound knowledge of 'Construction Laws' and legislature in general. . . Young engineers keep running behind modern technology but 'forget' to save personal good interest against evil powers in the society and industry !!


What to say more, the instance itself was 'EYE Opener' to Indian Design and Supervision practices !!

kasahakari wrote:
It is sad that IIT professors are arrested.

Apparently the bridge collapsed during construction, which means it is not the fault of
the Contractor. The neither the professor who proof checked the design is no way responsible nor the person who designed the bridge is responsible.

they left India" which is unfortunately true till today.
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shahaasifhussain
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2015 9:40 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

The Professors have been released on bail. This is unfortunate that highly qualified Intellectuals are being arrested and thieves and gangsters are roaming free in this country.I want to clear one thing that impression is being given by the police that Prof VP and VKG had not been responding to the court summons. this is absolutely false. They had been respecting the court orders. This was a highly motivated move by police.


Equally unfortunate is the attitude of some of the faculty of other higher institutes of civil engineering of india...........


Asif Shah
IIT ROORKEE

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 10:03 AM, abhy_vivek <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
                               LET'S EDUCATE OURSELVES WITH CONSTRUCTION LAWS and PROCEDURES


DESIGN ADEQUACY :- The Designer of the said bridge should submit a proof of previous experience in bridge design, planning and a valid licence to undertake the said work. (. . .which all of us believe, that must be available).


MATERAIL ADEQUACY :- The Client and contractor should open out the material test results (concrete, steel, PT cables, soil etc) and conformity of the same with valid acceptance criteria.


CONSTRUCTION ADEQUACY :- The contractor should open out the 'erection method statements' followed in this bridge, inclusive of the 'Planned Equipment' vs. 'Actual equipment' available equipment at site, their maintenance records, certificates of crane operators. Whether the 'Planned Method' of bridge erection was Screened and vetted by the 'Competent' engineer inclusive of designer.


SUPERVISION ADEQUACY :-

a) Adequacy of Design Proof Checking :- The competency, past experience, valid licence by the proof checking agency. List of comments given by the Design proof checker to main designer. 'Comment Closure Report' by the main designer on the comments given by Proof checker.


b) Adequacy of PMC / construction execution agency :- The various site records demanded by the PMC, time to time, comments by PMC, and adherence of all the records, procedures with the 'Contract Document'.


CONTRACTUAL ADEQUACY :-


The contract conditions for design, approval, revisions. PMC and construction etc.
The Contract conditions stating 'Consultant's Liabilities' and Responsibilities, including 'clause on Exclusions'.
Clause on 'Design Insurance'.


When all this documents are studied in 'Syncro' (like a jig-saw puzzle) then will bring out all the Facts !!


On behalf of the originals designers, (if they are members of any established body) these records may be asked before the court. Event under RTI the same will have to be provided by court on Top priority !! (. . . N.B. :- now a days we see common men misusing the RTI for trivial things like, earnings of film stars etc.. !!)


Anyway, this once again points out that 'Just Having Excellence' in FEM, Dynamics, Neural-Networks etc. is not sufficient, we must have a sound knowledge of 'Construction Laws' and legislature in general. . . Young engineers keep running behind modern technology but 'forget' to save personal good interest against evil powers in the society and industry !!


What to say more, the instance itself was 'EYE Opener' to Indian Design and Supervision practices !!

      kasahakari wrote:                It is sad that IIT professors are arrested.

Apparently the bridge collapsed during construction, which means it is not the fault of
the Contractor. The neither the professor who proof checked the design is no way responsible nor the person who designed the bridge is responsible.

they left India" which is unfortunately true till today.     
     



     


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