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Architect and Structural Engineer
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subramaniam
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:13 am    Post subject: Architect and Structural Engineer Reply with quote

I agreed Murali mithun statement which follows below




Let every person ( B.E. ONLY) after passing out from college go to work at site first ! work for minimum 5 Yrs at site. Later let them come back to design or office work. Where as M.Tech guys can directly enter into design. If even M.Tech guys are not upto the mark, then again let them work at site for minimum period of 3 years and come back to design


On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 8:37 AM, muralimithun <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            Dear All,
I agree with the uniform fee structure too.
As per my knowledge, these are the following reasons for failure of structural engineer in respect of charging equalised payments from clients.
1. Let college students stop doing designs for senior engineers or clients first. Students should study , not be permitted work for seniors outside tue college nor with clients. There should be committe where in civil drawings should not be taken from college lecturers nor students.
2. Clients should approach only to rigistered engineers and consultants. Again we need a new committe for his.
3. Let ordinary masons and engineers from other lines, (like electrical, mechanical, CS, MEP etc.,), shall be penalysed for entry into the civil/structural field. It can be summarised that, We use Terzhagi's equation to solve our daily engg probems, even though he is a mechanical engineer. But he studied and invented many concepts. Does these masons , non-civil-people know about our Civil Concepts????? Let them study and take degree first, later we may accept those guys into our field.
4. Unity in diversity has gone into vampire state!!!! This has to built up again. If there is no unity, unless the architects do every meetings at a bigger hotels and seminars for new concepts, FREE OF COST, then structural and civil engineers are really will become zombians over a period of time.
5. Let every person ( B.E. ONLY) after passing out from college go to work at site first ! work for minimum 5 Yrs at site. Later let them come back to design or office work. Where as M.Tech guys can directly enter into design. If even M.Tech guys are not upto the mark, then again let them work at site for minimum period of 3 years and come back to design. VTU permitted passing marks should not be taken into axcount. VTU itself is a vampire state for money as we know!!
If above principles are not taken seriously and adopted, really in my perview, for civil and structural engineers in India is a great vanishing time.
Hope I am clear.
regards, On 18-Oct-2015 8:34 am, "sureshkochi" forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
           Hi all:

We will have to understand the multiple stural designs and drawings are unavoidable for a project and our fee should be based on the total man hours spend on the project in toto from concept drawings to as built drawings (if required -depending on the scope of services requested from us).


Let us try to arrive at a minimum uniform fee to be changed for each of the scopes given to us like concept, detailed design drawings, calculations, proof checking, structural BOQ, shop drawing, site inspections, as built drawings etc. If we can arrive at a minimum fee for each of the above items and the like, (eg. 0.1 % of total / structural cost for one item, 0.25% for other item like). Then we can sum up our fee depending on the scope.


Also we should stop charging based on Sq feet of plith area or carpet area. Normally structural design of a building include many additional structures like UG Tanks, STP, Compound walls etc, the total work load of which can not be estimated on sq foot basis. Percentage of cost as fee ( Structural / full cost ) spec automatically hike the fee proportion to the cost. In case of Sq feet base fee charges clients tend to resist the increase in rate with time or when we go for next new project with same client. This is automatically covered if we adopt % age fee.


Also if we can have some uniform minimum charge for structural design fee across India like architects (Let us take some positive aspects from their practice too) it will make a drastic change in the social ( financial too ?? ) status of structural engineers.
Regards


Suresh

On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Binoy Bhuson Saha forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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SATYAPAUL
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:28 am    Post subject: Architect and Structural Engineer Reply with quote

dear all, unless engineers bill is passed by parliament, fate of engineers will always hang in balance. unqualified engineers call themselves as engineers. we all shall approach Minister for Urban Development that like Architects, only qualified engineers certified by professional bodies, similar to Chartered Accountants be eligible for practice and supervision. we should highlight the many failures of structures and death of personnel involved in construction. But who will bell the cat. some one must lead and convince the Mr.Naidu ,Urban Development Minister. Every drawing shall be signed by architects, structural engineer, electrical engineer, mechanical engineer, fire engineer. All shall be member of respective professional bodies approved by central Govt. No state registration is required, similar to CA. Let seifian shall nominate some one and give him all sort of support. regards satya paul On Thu, 29 Oct 2015 11:23:38 +0530 "muralimithun"  wrote >                   Dear All,  > I agree with the uniform fee structure too. > As per my knowledge, these are the following reasons for failure of structural engineer in respect of charging equalised payments from clients.  > 1. Let college students stop doing designs for senior engineers or clients first. Students should study , not be permitted work for seniors outside tue college nor with clients. There should be committe where in civil drawings should not be taken from college lecturers nor students.  > 2. Clients should approach only to rigistered engineers and consultants. Again we need a new committe for his.  > 3. Let ordinary masons and engineers from other lines, (like electrical, mechanical, CS, MEP etc.,), shall be penalysed for entry into the civil/structural field. It can be summarised that, We use Terzhagi';s equation to solve our daily engg probems, even though he is a mechanical engineer. But he studied and invented many concepts. Does these masons , non-civil-people know about our Civil Concepts????? Let them study and take degree first, later we may accept those guys into our field.  > 4. Unity in diversity has gone into vampire state!!!! This has to built up again. If there is no unity, unless the architects do every meetings at a bigger hotels and seminars for new concepts, FREE OF COST, then structural and civil engineers are really will become zombians over a period of time.  > 5. Let every person ( B.E. ONLY) after passing out from college go to work at site first ! work for minimum 5 Yrs at site. Later let them come back to design or office work. Where as M.Tech guys can directly enter into design. If even M.Tech guys are not upto the mark, then again let them work at site for minimum period of 3 years and come back to design. VTU permitted passing marks should not be taken into axcount. VTU itself is a vampire state for money as we know!!  > If above principles are not taken seriously and adopted, really in my perview, for civil and structural engineers in India is a great vanishing time.  > Hope I am clear.  > regards, On 18-Oct-2015 8:34 am, "sureshkochi" wrote:[quote]            Hi all: >  > We will have to understand the multiple stural designs and drawings are unavoidable for a project and our fee should be based on the total man hours spend on the project in toto from concept drawings to as built drawings (if required �-depending on the scope of services requested from us). >  >  > Let us try to arrive at a minimum uniform fee to be changed for each of the scopes given to us like concept, detailed design drawings, calculations, proof checking, structural BOQ, shop drawing, site inspections, as built drawings etc. If we can arrive at a minimum fee for each of the above items and the like, �(eg. 0.1 % of total / structural cost for one item, 0.25% for other item like). Then we can sum up our fee depending on the scope.� >  >  > Also we should stop charging based on Sq feet of plith area or carpet area.� Normally structural design of a building include many additional structures like UG Tanks, STP, Compound walls etc, the total work load of which can not be estimated on sq foot basis. Percentage of cost as fee ( Structural / full cost ) spec automatically hike the fee proportion to the cost. In case of Sq feet base fee charges clients tend to resist the increase in rate with time or when we go for next new project with same client. This is automatically covered if we adopt % age fee. >  >  > Also if we can have some uniform minimum charge for structural design fee across India like architects (Let us take some positive aspects from their practice too) it will make a drastic change in the social ( financial too ?? ) status of structural engineers.� > Regards >  >  > Suresh >  > On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 11:36 AM, Binoy Bhuson Saha forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote: >       --auto removed-- >       > >  >  > --

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bijoyav
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:57 am    Post subject: Structural design - A back office work Reply with quote

All of us aware that Structural Design is a back office work. Many times, clients do not even aware of such happenings. Need not too.

What could be the the decent fee for this work? Architects markets his services, interact with them, take inputs, create design, take BOQ, tender, supervise, commission etc...

Structural engineers role is the design of the structure. My knowledge, (with what I'm doing) is that Structural Engineers do design and not site supervision. In that case, if, Architects charge 8% for their fees, a 0.75% to 1% is a good sum for the work done by structural engineers. This comes around Rs 12.00 per square feet.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 11:00 am    Post subject: fee standard Reply with quote

Dear Madam

I agree with you regarding fee structures for structural engineers, we need minimum and standard format with legal procedure to implement this along with architect and developers,
we need a committee for this to  verify the structural fee charged by structural consultants , if charged less quote for getting job, then that committee has to put penalty double the fee in legal way

then only it will works better

Regards

Kumar
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Mayur_Pawar
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2023 4:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Architect and Structural Engineer Reply with quote

[quote="Ravichandran_Ramachandran"]Dear SEFIians,

I have not worked much with Architects! However, O have worked with Electrical & Mechanical Engineers! Just like Architectural drawings are the mother drawing for buildings, Electrical / Mechanical drawings are the mother drawings for Industrial buildings!


They do not get vendor information on day one and they prepare their drawings based on the available / past data! This is bound to change when actual order is placed and vendor of the equipment does his engineering!


Changes cannot be avoided! Take ironing right spirit and get along with your colleagues be it Architect/ Mechanical/ Electrical Engineers.


By the way, Architects, never prepare detailed civil drawings! At best they may prepare details for architectural drawings!


Regards,


R. Ravichandran
Retired Design Head ( C & S)
L & T, Chennai

On Monday 5 October 2015, ibarua <forum> wrote:
Quote:
            5th October 2015

Fellow engineers, like it or not, for a vast majority of engineering projects, the architect's drawings are the 'mother' drawings on the basis of which engineering drawings have to be made. Indeed, Hudson's Dictionary has called the architect the 'Master Builder'. While the architect provides the shape and the form, the engineer provides the substance to enable the architect's creation to be of service.

Having said that, let me add that I have not quite understood what Er Dipak Bhattacharyya is trying to say in the 2nd paragraph of his post. I am only trying to clarify the scopes & functions of the architect and the structural engineer to enable all of us to understand and appreciate the status of the different professionals engaged in design activity in a building nor similar engineering project.

Indrajit Barua.



From: dipak_bhattacharya
Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2015 22:12:39
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Architect and Structural Engineer
           Architects’ ego clash with structural engineers are from time immemorial. It is more so with Govt. Architects, with more years of service, promotions and experiences.
Todays’ professional Architects love only draughting with new and new softwares with no interest to learn detailing of reinforcements of their own ideas and their lies the problem with civil structural designers, throwing all detailing jobs to the engineers already loaded with structural designing. It is still acceptable, provided they are good at concept design.But alas, that is not taught at the Institutions.There the emphasis is limited to draughting only.

The biggest agony is that an Architect’s drawing cannot be used for constructions, and all of their drawings are converted to working drawings in the language of civil engineers who are at site for constructions.

The statements are unpalatable but these are facts.Architects’ drawing are limited to appreciation of beauties only, if those are really unique.

Regards,

Dipak Bhattacharya.
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RIGHT, As you said that the civil and architecture drawings are the mother of the engineering drawings. And today's industry or engineers are dependent on the past architectural or drawing, even they don't know what is easy available in todays world. They have to improve there knowledge in the graphics or in engineering drawings.

In past decades Auto Cad software is not available in electrical utilities that's why they draws the plan of the substation or power system on big size of papers. It was a very complex and difficult work to draw the entire plan on the sheets.
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vikram.jeet
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2023 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Structural Engineer Role is everywhere  , be it Buildings of sny magnitude,, Water Retaining structures like OH tanks snd Treatment plants for Water, Waste waters & industrial effluents,,  Bridges from small to complex,, Industrial structures  requiring big Machine halls designs with EOT 's,, Cooling towers,, chimneys,, steel str buildings for main plants,, Hydropower structures and tunneling ,, on shore and off- shore structures  and much more  .



But in most of above areas of working viz Buildings,, Environmental,, Transportation, Industrial incd Thermal & Gas power , Hydropower,, Shore projects,,  Atomic Power,, Space,, Defence, ,  Structural man  has to go by basic drgs provided by Architect,, Environmental Engineer,, Transportation Er,, Industries E&M, and Planners of various fields.


However Structural Engineer /Construction engineer role is  solo 0nly in Bridge projects where, apart from providing safe and economical Bridge proposal,, he has to look into aesthetic s of bridge. But now a days even that role is now shared by architect. In bridge project architect can not fix parameters.

But from experience it id seen that structural man is  consulted every where for proposals finalisation . He is a prime technocrat on whose expertise depends the safety, economics and aesthetic s of s project.

Just a view point
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