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Mullaperiyar
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francis chacko
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

Quote:
Dear Members

I am forwarding herewith a video on Mullaperiyar Dam

Quote:


The Sefi organization had about 10,000 members and there my be dam design experts.

I would like to get comments from† the members.

It has become a critical issue for the Keralites and the loss may be about 35 lakh lives.
It is also critical for Tamil Nadu if the dam Bursts. They will be deprived of drinking water and water requirement for cultivation of huge land.

Quote:

The water height was reduced from 142 ft.to 136 ft. in 1979.To day the water level was reached 136.4 ft..

Large scale protests and representations are made by people of Kerala as people are very much afraid.

The following points may be looked into and comments may please be given:-

a. As per the designer the expected life was 50 years only. Now the age is 116 years.
†† Is it not to be demolished and a new dam to be constructed?Is there any dam which had life more than this?

b. Immediate step is to reduce the water holding height to 120 ft. as suggested by the experts.Even then this will help only for† a short period and that is it not better to construct the new dam and till such time the water height to be reduced to 120 ft.?

c. Is it possible to retrofit the dam to give a life for another 50 years

d.I do not think that earth quake resistant design has been considered during the design time and that continuous tremors will further harm the structure and a collapse may be possible with out even reaching ritcher scale 6.3 as suggested by IIT Rourkee?

e.† Is continous tremours a fore warning for a severe earth quake?

f.Finally what is your expert opinion ignoring the political controversies?

The lease agreement between Kerala† and tamil nadu was for 999 years and that there should have been a clause for reconstruction

Quote:

B.Wishes,
K C FRANCIS




Here is a small video on Mullaperiyar. Please†watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gS0PwCmjIt4&feature=player_embedded&noredirect=1



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sbglobal
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:46 pm    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

what is  this in mail ? can u explain?

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 4:52 AM, francis chacko <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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prof.arc
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:14 pm    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

This is a dangerous topic to discuss but yet having experience of such type of propaganda with respect to Koyna & Tehri in particular and also drawing attention to the motivated propaganda on Kudankulam NPP, I give my opinion.

I realise it will open a flood gates of discussion.


First item is the estimate of earthquake that would occur. Usually in such debates, since no one can say 100% that an event would occur, the upper limit would go on extending till the proponents feel that the structure may get damaged. This had happened in Tehri where the limit was moved from 0.25g to excess of Unit Gravity and even higher. One of the worthy gentleman [who was my close friend] who proposed such event right below the Dam lived in D'Dun and when I visited his home, I told him that if he really believed in such high value, he would not be living in his home.†


Second item - one should not think that earthquake would chase only the politicised M Dam. We should apply the test to all dams in Kerala and in particular to Idukki Arch Dam which is an plain concrete Arch Dam.


Third item - the gravity Dam does not get washed away [here one moment and next moment, presto, it does not exist]
At worst, a block may get damaged causing seeping as in Koyna Dam or forming an artificial sluice gate.


There will be no more sensible thinking on this issue. It will now be decided by politicians and courts.


If in Kudankulam or Jaitapur, the scenario of Japan type earthquakes can be used to derail for political purposes,
anything is possible - say, Alamati Dam to affect Telengana, Bhakra dam to affect our very very hostile neighbour and so on


Fictitious scenarios can be used to derail any project. Engineers can no more think objectively but has to dance to the tunes of politicians.


JAI HIND


ARC†



On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:22 PM, francis chacko <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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gdevi_80
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:20 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

Good day Sir,
I read your mail. will comment shortly
thanks
Dr.G.Nandini Devi

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:22 PM, francis chacko <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
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francis chacko
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:14 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

DEAR PROF. ARC,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR COMMENTS

K C FRANCIS

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 7:10 AM, prof.arc <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           This is a dangerous topic to discuss but yet having experience of such type of propaganda with respect to Koyna & Tehri in particular and also drawing attention to the motivated propaganda on Kudankulam NPP, I give my opinion.

I realise it will open a flood gates of discussion.


First item is the estimate of earthquake that would occur. Usually in such debates, since no one can say 100% that an event would occur, the upper limit would go on extending till the proponents feel that the structure may get damaged. This had happened in Tehri where the limit was moved from 0.25g to excess of Unit Gravity and even higher. One of the worthy gentleman [who was my close friend] who proposed such event right below the Dam lived in D'Dun and when I visited his home, I told him that if he really believed in such high value, he would not be living in his home.†


Second item - one should not think that earthquake would chase only the politicised M Dam. We should apply the test to all dams in Kerala and in particular to Idukki Arch Dam which is an plain concrete Arch Dam.


Third item - the gravity Dam does not get washed away [here one moment and next moment, presto, it does not exist]
At worst, a block may get damaged causing seeping as in Koyna Dam or forming an artificial sluice gate.


There will be no more sensible thinking on this issue. It will now be decided by politicians and courts.


If in Kudankulam or Jaitapur, the scenario of Japan type earthquakes can be used to derail for political purposes,
anything is possible - say, Alamati Dam to affect Telengana, Bhakra dam to affect our very very hostile neighbour and so on


Fictitious scenarios can be used to derail any project. Engineers can no more think objectively but has to dance to the tunes of politicians.


JAI HIND


ARC†



On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 6:22 PM, francis chacko forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
                  --auto removed--
     



     





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mtamil
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prof ARC - Thanks for your analysis.

I believe, the post is biased & I can understand this (sentiment) as Mr Francis C is from Kerala.

( I am from Tamilnadu)

Best regards to Mr. Francis C & others.

Tamilarasan
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balkiiyer
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:04 am    Post subject: MullaiPeriyar Dam Issue Reply with quote

It is quite disheartening to see a comment stating this post is biased since the post was created by a Keralite. We all are educated and education should instill in us a sense to investigate, try to get the facts right, discuss, opine and form a judgement. We all Engineers are technically qualified and capable of unbiased discussions rather than sensitising the issue by playing to the tunes of the wretched Political Class that our country is blessed with.

Coming to the issue; The whole issue is just being politicised by both the States over the years that this issue has cropped up. Sometimes, The Kerala Government and TN Government agrees in a meeting for Seepage measurements by a third neutral party under the guidance of CWc. But then it becomes unacceptable to one Government.
Also they decide unanimously in a meeting for reconstruction of a new dam (as initially suggested by the Kerala Government) with an understanding to release the same amount of water to TN as agreed in the original agreement between the States. But then it becomes unacceptable to one Government.

Retrofitting or rehabilitation was proposed for a dam in Australia which was constructed during the same time a Mullaiperiyar. Eventually, the rehabilitation was found to be unsuccessful and dam was decommissioned in 1988. We have to understand that Mullaiperiyar is very old and rehab measures will not be completely successful. Also, Mullaiperiyar was designed in a time when Earthquake design was probably not existing or in a very nascent level of understanding.

With this background, the most sensible situation would be to decommission the existing Mullaiperiyar dam, build a new dam downstream of the existing location and release the same amount of water to TN as is being released. The new dam should be designed according to the latest design practise and available technology to achiev maximum technical and economic benefits. Beyond everything, Human Life is most important and has to be safeguarded.
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mtamil
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi balkiiyer,

I would request you to go through the analysis by Prof. ARC earlier in this discussion.

I am not great, as for as Dam Engineering is concerened. I am going with Prof. ARCs opinions & you are free to counter. I am eagerly looking for such arguments with strong technical background (biased - unbiased - no matter to me).

Some retospection is needed before concluding anything.  Is the issue limited only to safty? - No; There are vested interests. Let us not forget it.

If safty is the only issue, there are many ways to solve this. One way is to request the agency that is presently engaged in operation & maintance of the dam, to evolve a plan, involve experts and take apporpriate action to ensure safty of the dam. If a new dam is recommended by experts, allow TN to build and operate the new dam.  Will this be acceptable?

(I am sorry, the whole discussion becoming more political)

Best reagrds
Tamilarasan
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balkiiyer
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Tamilarasan

I completely agree with you that the whole issue is becoming a raging debate only because of interests other than the so called "Safety". The safety concern was brought up as early as 1979 but it is only now that so many people are talking about it... The timing is definitely circumspect.. But let us also agree that the dam is pretty old (more than 100 years) and construction of a new dam is definitely needed if Human lives are to be saved.. It doesnt matter who is to make the dam or operate it or make money from it...

Because of the rising population and its consequences dams are required for the nation but it should not be painted with political hues and vested interests without concern to the people of the country (be it the people of Kerala downstream of the dam or farmers in Vaigai basin of TN dependent on the diverted water for irrigation)... But unfortunately this is what is happening in case of Mullaiperiyar..
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is durability seriously an issue? If any type of structure has stood to the test of time, it is masonry structures. Masonry structures of long forgotten dynasties still abound while shiny new steel and concrete structures bite the dust in mere decades.

A gravity dam is also hardly a "structure" in the same sense as an RCC or steel frame. It simply sits there!

I don't claim to know much about dams and about Mullaperiyar, but I do know that any statement and action of our praiseworthy leaders needs to be taken with a generous helping of salt.
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