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Mullaperiyar
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anilvn225
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Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:46 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

KOODAM KULAM YOU WILL NOT TAKE ANY RISK.

SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT.

WHEN IT COMES TO MULLAPPERIAYAR NOT THAT MUCH DAMAGE. WE CAN TAKE CHANCE !!

YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS THE CONCERN OF THE PEOPLE.

LET THE EXPERT TO COMMENT WITH RESPONSIBILITY.

PEOPLE WITH REGIONAL SENTIMENTS, AND POLOTICIANS PLEASE KEEP QUITE, WHO HAVE NO VALUE FOR OTHERS LIFE AND LIVELYHOOD.

IF THER E IS EVEN ONE PERCENT RISK, WE SHOULD NOT TAKE ANY CHANCE. LIFE IS PRECIOUS.


From: selvakumar [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 4:50 PM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar


Dear Mr.Kalil,

Thats why supreme court of india which is apex body formed one expert panel including seismologists and other specialists in the field and that panel after assessing all possibilities and visiting the dam, made a statement in the year 2006 that the dam is safe to store 152 ft. Did the kerala govt respected the judgement.....why no one is talking about that.....

if any common man not respected the judgement even by small courts (session or district) courts he will be sentenced behind bars. What the central governement doing.

later the same kerala governement passed a act in legislative assembly that more than 136 ft. should not be stored.
From 2007 to 2011 what the govt did. After so many petitions in high court the court asked about the safety of the people if the dam broken. What the govt. of kerala replied you know....even if the dam broken the 10 tmc water will reach thru caves to idukki...only mere 450 families are there.....even they can be evacuated.....

A LIE REPEATEDLY SAID WONT BECOME TRUE. KERALA HAS TO OPEN THE EYES AND SEE WHICH IS REAL.

IF THE DESIGN SPAN YOU ARE TALKING IS 50 YEARS.......

WILL YOU BREAK IDUKKI DAM BY 2026.....WILL THEY BREAK ALL THE DAM IN INDIA WHICH SERVES MORE THAN 50 YEARS......

KARIKAAL CHOLAN BUILT DAM KALLANAI CENTURY STILL SERVES TANJORE DISTRICT WHICH IS THE " GRANARY OF SOUTHERN INDIA"

SEE THE BELOW MESSAGE & LINK....

Kallanai is a dam made with unhewn stone, 329 m (1,079 ft) long, 20 m (66 ft) wide and 5.4 m (18 ft) high, across the main stream of the Kaveri.[6] The purpose of the dam was to divert the waters of the Kaveri across the fertile delta region for irrigation via canals. The dam is still in excellent repair, and supplied a model to later engineers, including the Sir Arthur Cotton's 19th-century dam across the Kollidam, the major tributary of the Kaveri.[7] The area irrigated by the ancient irrigation network is about 69,000 acres (28,000 ha). By the early 20th century, the irrigated area had been increased to about one million acres.[8]
Recently the Delta farmers of Tamil Nadu demanded the Tamil Nadu government honour the great Chola king Karikala Cholan, who built the Kallanai.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Anicut

REGARDS
SELVA



On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Joseph.Kallolil forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
Dear members,
any of the members have the access to Mullappariyar Dam engineering drawings? Do those drawings exist? I would appreciate if anybody can upload such technical information in this forum for healthy discussion.

Here the question is not who owns what or who is having the right to do the required. The real question is whether the DAM IS SAFE. If it is not safe what are the measures that we can adopt to make it safe. Strengthening measures? Decommissioning of the existing and building a new one? Hope our senior experienced members can highlight on this issue (of course there were discussions on this earlier also, still it will be nice if we can discuss further with more accurrate technical information). Remember- on one side it is the lifeline of many and on the other side it is the question of real lives itself for so many, both are important if not eqaually. The time is running out, we have to come to a solution compromising on anything, but not on SAFETY.

With best regards,


Joseph J Kallolil
Senior Structural Engineer,

Doha, Qatar.
Ph: +974 55974894 (Mob)
+974 44620745 (Home)




Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar
From: forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:24:27 +0530
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))  







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vaisakhg
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Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Kollam, Kerala, India

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2011 3:19 pm    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

Dear all,

I want to discuss some of the points raised in the previous discussions.

@ Hariharmuthu:

You tried to compare the dam with the architectural monuments like taj and so on. I am not able to understand your logic to compare these two.

"Now the Kerala high court also undergone research on this and finally
concluded that there is no problem for the life of the people." this statement you are making is absolute nonsense (sorry to say so)". You please read through the court proceedings and the affidavit filed by the state of kerala. please dont comment based on some statements made during the proceedings.

@ MMS:

the verdict from the apex court is now challenged by the state of kerala. Now it is suspended. Please wait for the final verdict from the court.

The studies upon which the court passed the verdict is not reliable in these grounds.
The baby dam alone is studied. the site specific seismic acceleration is not considered. they studied on the basis of general coefficient of 0.18g which is not acceptable for this scale of study where the dam area lies in a series of fault zones. The study had not done any independent study on the main dam. it assumed the main dam is safe after repairs. Even then the CWC analyzed the main dam only for 0.1g. they had just copied the reports of CWC for the main Dam. this is the reason why representative of Kerala wrote a descent note.

@selvakumar:

I am unable to understand what you meant by the statement "The dam constructed in the year 1895 when it constructed the place belongs to State of Travancore. But actually (???) it belongs to tamilnadu."

Tamilnadu only have a lease agreement. not ownership. even though they pretend otherwise.

Unlike the Mullaperiyar dam, idukki dam was tested for the maximum considered earthquakes. the design was done by russian engineers and shake table tests we conducted in IIT Roorkee (was not IIT then).

He also says "They are saying from new dam we will give enough water to tamil nadu. There lies their cunning mind. Periyar dam is in the height of 2709 ft to 2861 ft from sea level. From this the caves made and reaches water for tamilnadu. New dam has to be built at a height of 1853 ft."

This is either because he is unaware of the fact that the proposed new dam is only 200m downstream of the existing dam and the the water level is intented to be the same as the existing conditions. Or he is fabricating (sorry to say so) to back his arguments. the levels will not drop drastically in the terrain as he is claiming.

And regarding the doubts of the dimensions of the disaster that will follow the break of the dam, i invite you to visit the site and understand the situations. I am living in the down stream of the dam. If you are so sure about the safety of the dam, i request you to come to the villages d/s and stay here for a week (if you dare to come).

And all these should be read together with the the attacks on innocent keralites residing in Tamil Nadu and no steps are taken to stop such violence.

Yours truly,

Vaisakh G
http://vaisakhg.blogspot.com/
http://vaisakhg.googlepages.com
facebook.com/vaisakhg
+91 9656840794



On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:50 PM, selvakumar <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear Mr.Kalil,
 
     Thats why supreme court of india which is apex body formed one expert panel including seismologists and other specialists in the field and that panel after assessing all possibilities and visiting the dam, made a statement in the year 2006 that the dam is safe to store 152 ft. Did the kerala govt respected the judgement.....why no one is talking about that.....
 
if any common man not respected the judgement even by small courts (session or district) courts he will be sentenced behind bars. What the central governement doing.
 
later the same kerala governement passed a act in legislative assembly that more than 136 ft. should not be stored.
From 2007 to 2011 what the govt did. After so many petitions in high court the court asked about the safety of the people if the dam broken. What the govt. of kerala replied you know....even if the dam broken the 10 tmc water will reach thru caves to idukki...only mere 450 families are there.....even they can be evacuated.....
 
A LIE REPEATEDLY SAID WONT BECOME TRUE. KERALA HAS TO OPEN THE EYES AND SEE WHICH IS REAL.
 
IF THE DESIGN SPAN YOU ARE TALKING IS 50 YEARS.......
 
WILL YOU BREAK IDUKKI DAM BY 2026.....WILL THEY BREAK ALL THE DAM IN INDIA WHICH SERVES MORE THAN 50 YEARS......
 
KARIKAAL CHOLAN BUILT DAM KALLANAI  CENTURY STILL SERVES TANJORE DISTRICT WHICH IS THE " GRANARY OF SOUTHERN INDIA"
 
SEE THE BELOW MESSAGE & LINK....
 
Kallanai is a dam made with unhewn stone, 329 m (1,079 ft) long, 20 m (66 ft) wide and 5.4 m (18 ft) high, across the main stream of the Kaveri.[6] The purpose of the dam was to divert the waters of the Kaveri across the fertile delta region for irrigation via canals. The dam is still in excellent repair, and supplied a model to later engineers, including the Sir Arthur Cotton's 19th-century dam across the Kollidam, the major tributary of the Kaveri.[7] The area irrigated by the ancient irrigation network is about 69,000 acres (28,000 ha). By the early 20th century, the irrigated area had been increased to about one million acres.[8]
Recently the Delta farmers of Tamil Nadu demanded the Tamil Nadu government honour the great Chola king Karikala Cholan, who built the Kallanai.[9]
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Anicut

REGARDS
SELVA
 

 
On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Joseph.Kallolil forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
Quote:
Dear members,
any of the members have the access to Mullappariyar Dam engineering drawings? Do those drawings exist? I would appreciate if anybody can upload such technical information in this forum for healthy discussion.

Here the question is not who owns what or who is having the right to do the required. The real question is whether the DAM IS SAFE. If it is not safe what are the measures that we can adopt to make it safe. Strengthening measures? Decommissioning of the existing and building a new one? Hope our senior experienced members can highlight on this issue (of course there were discussions on this earlier also, still it will be nice if we can discuss further with more accurrate technical information). Remember- on one side it is the lifeline of many and on the other side it is the question of real lives itself for so many, both are important if not eqaually. The time is running out, we have to come to a solution compromising on anything, but not on SAFETY.

With best regards,


Joseph J Kallolil
Senior Structural Engineer,

Doha, Qatar.
Ph: +974 55974894 (Mob)
+974 44620745 (Home)




Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar

From: forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:24:27 +0530

To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org) (general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org))
     



     





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MMS
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Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:54 pm    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

Dear Mr.Vaisakh,

Please refer below for the point by point reply for your comments about my earlier posting.


<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Firstly, please note that the State of Kerala representative suggested to the Honourable Supreme Court in 2001 that the water level in the Mulla Periyar reservoir can be raised to a level where the tensile stress in the Baby dam does not exceed 2.85 t/m2 especially during the case of full reservoir level with earthquake with PGA value of 0.12g . Please note the PGA value 0.12g which was suggested in the report was actually agreed by the State of Kerala representative in the year 2001. Why now higher value of PGA is required? Did the Fault pattern change suddenly in the last 11 years?

(Please refer the following extract from Supreme Court Verdict. “4. The water level in the Mulla Periyar reservoir be raised to a level where the tensile stress in the Baby dam does not exceed 2.85 t/m2 (as suggested by Shri Parameswaran Nair, Kerala representative) especially in condition E (full reservoir level with earthquake) as per BIS Code IS 6512-1984 with ah= 0.12 g and analysis as per clause Nos. 3.4.2.3 and 7.3.1 of BIS Code 1893-1984.”)

As far as I know, the Mullai Periyaar Dam location as well as Idukki dam location come in the zone 3 seismic zone as per IS1893-2002. Also as per the probabilistic seismic hazard map of India (prepared by the National Disaster Management Authority), Fig 5.4 shows that the PGA contour value of 0.08 for 10% probability of exceedence in 50 years (return Period ~500years). Fig 5.5 shows that the PGA contour value of 0.12 for 2% probability of exceedence in 50 years (return Period ~2500years). Fig 5.6 shows that the PGA contour value of 0.18 for probability of exceedence in 50 years (return Period ~5000years). I am not an expert in Seismic design. But, I believe considering the PGA values of the above range hold good for the location of Mullaiperiyaar Dam.

However, it was not PGA of 0.18g (but 0.12g) used in the analysis as mentioned in your post. Please do not afraid of this PGA value adopted for the analysis of Mullai Periyaar Dam is very less. After long hours of searching in the internet (thanks to google), I came across one article by a professor who was very keen in demolishing the Mullaiperiyar dam put in his report, the PGA values used for the design of Idukki dams (Plain Concrete Arch Dam, Cheruthoni Dam & Kulamaavu Dam) and the lower periyaar dam (This is not same as Mullaiperiyaar Dam. As you know, this is the other dam along the water course of River Periyaar, last safeguard of the central kerala). I could not believe the PGA values first. However, since these values are provided by the person who is very keen in demolishing the Mullai Periyaar Dam, I must believe it. Please refer below.

Dams PGAh PGAv
Idukki Plain Concrete Arch Dam 0.05g 0.025g
Cheruthoni Dam 0.05g 0.025g
Kulamaavu Dam 0.05g 0.025g
Lower Periyaar Dam 0.10g 0.10g

Extract from his report as follows.

“The failure of Mulaperiyar dam could be catastrophic for Idukki project. Idukki dam that was built to hold 2000million cubic meters of water (70 TMC) will have to absorb flash floods of 443 million cubic meters (15 TMC) from 50 kms away and if it fails hundreds of towns and villages of Periyar basin in Kerala will be wiped out if the dams of Idukki failed. Idukki was designed for PGAh of 0.05g and PGAv of 0.025g. It means that the dams cannot withstand earthquakes of higher intensity expected in the area in the near future. Lower Periyar dam downstream is designed for PGAh of 0.1g.

Check the PGA values he talks about. Is there any typo in his report for Idukki Dams?Smile Honestly I don’t know.

Coming to the tensile stress testing of baby dam,
After receiving the test report from CSMRS (Central Soil & Material Research Station, Government of India, New Delhi) for the tensile stress of 2.85 t/m2 (as suggested by the Kerala Representative), all the experts including the Kerala Representative agreed on 9-10 Feb 2001 that the tensile stress does not exceed 2.85 t/m2. Please refer below extract.

“The summary of results of stability analysis of Mullaperiyar Baby Dam contains note which shows that the permissible tensile strength was masonry as per the specifications mentioned therein based on test conducted by CSMRS, Delhi on the time and agreed by all Committee members including the Kerala representative in the meeting of the Committee held on 9-10th February, 2001.”

A value was fixed for testing initially. Test was conducted. The result was agreed by all. But, the party who fixed the upper limit value for test, provide dissent note later. How can this dissent note can be accounted for. It was the reason why the Honourable Supreme Court considered the approval note of all other 6 experts except the expert from kerala and gave the verdict in the year 2006.

I am not a legal expert. But it is the 1st time I heard in my life that a verdict given by Honourable supreme Court can be cancelled and one more time the same case can be conducted. I am a layman in legal proceedings. To me, the Supreme Court is the top most authority and nothing else. After all, it was not a verdict given by a District Court or High Court. However, considering the great fear among the brothers and sisters of Kerala (even though it was hyped by their government and their media), I believe, we, the people of kerala & TN should await the final verdict one more time. So I, myself, will wait for the final verdict instead of listening to the statements of political parties and the animated scenes of graphics and cinemas.

Eventhough, your other comments relate with other persons, I feel to express my views on your other comments also.

<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>Please note that the statement mentioned in your 1st comment was made by none other than the Advocate General of Kerala.
“While making statements in court on Dec 2 on the safety measures being taken by Kerala in the event of the dam's collapse, The advocate general of kerala had purportedly said three downstream dams of Idukki, Kulavamuvu and Cheruthoni could hold waters of Mullaperiyar”.
I am very sorry that it was not noticed by you who made that statement to the Honourable High Court of Kerala during the proceedings.

<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Regarding the new dam position, as per the information I have, the FRL of the proposed dam is +140.00ft from the river bed (50ft from river bed to the base of the dam; 90ft from the base of the dam to the FRL). The FRL of the Mullain Periyaar Dam is +202.00ft from the river bed (50ft from river bed to the base of the dam; 152ft from the base of the dam to the FRL). But the water can be diverted to TN through the tunnel only when it crosses the level of +156.00 ft from the river bed (50ft from river bed to the base of the dam; 104ft from the base of the dam to the Tapping Level in tunnel). For the sake of calculation, 62ft difference in the FRL for the distance of 650ft (200m as mentioned by you) is very common in that hilly region. Please tell us how the water can be diverted from the proposed dam location to the TN farmers who are completely dependant on these waters.

All the above calc is based on the information I have. If you have a contradict information to the above levels, please share with us along with the solution to divert the water to TN from the proposed dam position.

However, Can you answer me one simple question? If at all, new dam is constructed within 200m, why the old dam need to be demolished? Why the agreement need to be cancelled? Except one earlier post, I could not see no one said that the old dam can be retained eventhough the new dam is constructed (From this side of the mountain, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul kalam said that the old dam can be retained with its leese agreement valid and, If Kerala wants, they can build a new dam downstream side). Why no one in this forum except one person from the other side of the mountain did not voice this point. Why all of you are interested in demolishing the old dam only?

I am actually from the place near Madurai, TN. (A place where children are named after Pennycuick even today, the great English man who constructed the mighty dam). I came to the dam site once. Viewed the great dam (“The Periyar project, as it was then known, was widely considered well into the 20th Century as "one of the most extraordinary feats of engineering ever performed by man".-Source Wikipedia) and admired it greatly. Actually decided to settle in that place. Unfortunately, I believe its not possible due to the violence and mistreatment of Tamils in Kerala in the last few weeks.

My friend,
attacks are going on the 2 sides of our state border. The violence happens here in my state is not acceptable to me and I strongly condemn it.

In the same way, attacking the innocent Tamil Iyyappa Devotees coming there to Sabarimala and attacking the Tamil Plantation workers in Kerala also not acceptable. Its very sad that, till now, no action was taken on the other side of the mountain to stop these violences.

However, considering this forum is for discussing the technical issues only, better we shall discuss the technical things alone about this issue and leave the rest to the other forums.

Anyway thanks for your comments.

The links on which my above statements are based shall be shared to the interested if contacted in the following mail.
m.muthuselvan@gmail.com (m.muthuselvan@gmail.com).

Thank You.

Regards,
M. Muthu Selvan, M.E. (Struct)

From: vaisakhg [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 2:31 PM
To: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar



Dear all,

I want to discuss some of the points raised in the previous discussions.

@ Hariharmuthu:

You tried to compare the dam with the architectural monuments like taj and so on. I am not able to understand your logic to compare these two.

"Now the Kerala high court also undergone research on this and finally
concluded that there is no problem for the life of the people." this statement you are making is absolute nonsense (sorry to say so)". You please read through the court proceedings and the affidavit filed by the state of kerala. please dont comment based on some statements made during the proceedings.

@ MMS:

the verdict from the apex court is now challenged by the state of kerala. Now it is suspended. Please wait for the final verdict from the court.

The studies upon which the court passed the verdict is not reliable in these grounds.
The baby dam alone is studied. the site specific seismic acceleration is not considered. they studied on the basis of general coefficient of 0.18g which is not acceptable for this scale of study where the dam area lies in a series of fault zones. The study had not done any independent study on the main dam. it assumed the main dam is safe after repairs. Even then the CWC analyzed the main dam only for 0.1g. they had just copied the reports of CWC for the main Dam. this is the reason why representative of Kerala wrote a descent note.

@selvakumar:

I am unable to understand what you meant by the statement "The dam constructed in the year 1895 when it constructed the place belongs to State of Travancore. But actually (???) it belongs to tamilnadu."

Tamilnadu only have a lease agreement. not ownership. even though they pretend otherwise.

Unlike the Mullaperiyar dam, idukki dam was tested for the maximum considered earthquakes. the design was done by russian engineers and shake table tests we conducted in IIT Roorkee (was not IIT then).

He also says "They are saying from new dam we will give enough water to tamil nadu. There lies their cunning mind. Periyar dam is in the height of 2709 ft to 2861 ft from sea level. From this the caves made and reaches water for tamilnadu. New dam has to be built at a height of 1853 ft."

This is either because he is unaware of the fact that the proposed new dam is only 200m downstream of the existing dam and the the water level is intented to be the same as the existing conditions. Or he is fabricating (sorry to say so) to back his arguments. the levels will not drop drastically in the terrain as he is claiming.

And regarding the doubts of the dimensions of the disaster that will follow the break of the dam, i invite you to visit the site and understand the situations. I am living in the down stream of the dam. If you are so sure about the safety of the dam, i request you to come to the villages d/s and stay here for a week (if you dare to come).

And all these should be read together with the the attacks on innocent keralites residing in Tamil Nadu and no steps are taken to stop such violence.

Yours truly,

Vaisakh G
http://vaisakhg.blogspot.com/
http://vaisakhg.googlepages.com
facebook.com/vaisakhg
+91 9656840794



On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:50 PM, selvakumar forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 11:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been watching this discussion for a long period....Here, i see many of our Tamil brothers argue raising some old specifications or design factors of the dam...Why no one speaks about the series of earthquakes occured recently...??? Many experts doubts about a change in fault pattern in that area....
How could you purposefully forget the lives of people and demand for water..??
OK...even if we agree with your argument that; 'there is only less probability to get the dam failed' , please read together that 'less probability' with the lives of the people...And there is a big factor which nobody cares; The 'PSYCHOLOGICAL' factor.....For those people who are sitting in the 'safe' areas and speaking against this wont understand about this....You dont know how scared the people live at the downstreams....And the most pity arguments from TN is that; 'this panic is created by media'.....I have only one thing to tell u; pls study the happenings correctly and speak....Dont be fools by blindly believing what ur politicians say...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Sefians,
About this dam as I have already commented, it should be sorted by the Apex court. It is better to be calm in this issue instead of hurting the other senior peoples in this forum.

Technology has developed so much, we can make the wonders with the current available technology.

Let us use this forum for some good constructive thinking and not blaming each other.

_________________
G.PARTHASARATHY M.E. CEng(UK), MICE., MIE.,
CHENNAI
GPSARATHYY@GMAIL.COM


Last edited by gpsarathyy on Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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binuvp
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Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:15 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

A simple question to those who argue that the 145 years old dam is safe.............
If it is so, how long it cna be safe like this? Can this dam be immortal?
Will TamilNadu at any time in future agree that dam can be decommissioned?
Could any of the supporters of the dam answer this?
Binu

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 4:22 AM, MMS <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear Mr.Vaisakh,

Please refer below for the point by point reply for your comments about my earlier posting.


1. Firstly, please note that the State of Kerala representative suggested to the Honourable Supreme Court in 2001 that the water level in the Mulla Periyar reservoir can be raised to a level where the tensile stress in the Baby dam does not exceed 2.85 t/m2 especially during the case of full reservoir level with earthquake with PGA value of 0.12g . Please note the PGA value 0.12g which was suggested in the report was actually agreed by the State of Kerala representative in the year 2001. Why now higher value of PGA is required? Did the Fault pattern change suddenly in the last 11 years?

(Please refer the following extract from Supreme Court Verdict. “4. The water level in the Mulla Periyar reservoir be raised to a level where the tensile stress in the Baby dam does not exceed 2.85 t/m2 (as suggested by Shri Parameswaran Nair, Kerala representative) especially in condition E (full reservoir level with earthquake) as per BIS Code IS 6512-1984 with ah= 0.12 g and analysis as per clause Nos. 3.4.2.3 and 7.3.1 of BIS Code 1893-1984.”)

As far as I know, the Mullai Periyaar Dam location as well as Idukki dam location come in the zone 3 seismic zone as per IS1893-2002. Also as per the probabilistic seismic hazard map of India (prepared by the National Disaster Management Authority), Fig 5.4 shows that the PGA contour value of 0.08 for 10% probability of exceedence in 50 years (return Period ~500years). Fig 5.5 shows that the PGA contour value of 0.12 for 2% probability of exceedence in 50 years (return Period ~2500years). Fig 5.6 shows that the PGA contour value of 0.18 for probability of exceedence in 50 years (return Period ~5000years). I am not an expert in Seismic design. But, I believe considering the PGA values of the above range hold good for the location of Mullaiperiyaar Dam.

However, it was not PGA of 0.18g (but 0.12g) used in the analysis as mentioned in your post. Please do not afraid of this PGA value adopted for the analysis of Mullai Periyaar Dam is very less. After long hours of searching in the internet (thanks to google), I came across one article by a professor who was very keen in demolishing the Mullaiperiyar dam put in his report, the PGA values used for the design of Idukki dams (Plain Concrete Arch Dam, Cheruthoni Dam & Kulamaavu Dam) and the lower periyaar dam (This is not same as Mullaiperiyaar Dam. As you know, this is the other dam along the water course of River Periyaar, last safeguard of the central kerala). I could not believe the PGA values first. However, since these values are provided by the person who is very keen in demolishing the Mullai Periyaar Dam, I must believe it. Please refer below.

Dams PGAh PGAv
Idukki Plain Concrete Arch Dam 0.05g 0.025g
Cheruthoni Dam 0.05g 0.025g
Kulamaavu Dam 0.05g 0.025g
Lower Periyaar Dam 0.10g 0.10g

Extract from his report as follows.

“The failure of Mulaperiyar dam could be catastrophic for Idukki project. Idukki dam that was built to hold 2000million cubic meters of water (70 TMC) will have to absorb flash floods of 443 million cubic meters (15 TMC) from 50 kms away and if it fails hundreds of towns and villages of Periyar basin in Kerala will be wiped out if the dams of Idukki failed. Idukki was designed for PGAh of 0.05g and PGAv of 0.025g. It means that the dams cannot withstand earthquakes of higher intensity expected in the area in the near future. Lower Periyar dam downstream is designed for PGAh of 0.1g.”

Check the PGA values he talks about. Is there any typo in his report for Idukki Dams?Smile Honestly I don’t know.

Coming to the tensile stress testing of baby dam,
After receiving the test report from CSMRS (Central Soil & Material Research Station, Government of India, New Delhi) for the tensile stress of 2.85 t/m2 (as suggested by the Kerala Representative), all the experts including the Kerala Representative agreed on 9-10 Feb 2001 that the tensile stress does not exceed 2.85 t/m2. Please refer below extract.

“The summary of results of stability analysis of Mullaperiyar Baby Dam contains note which shows that the permissible tensile strength was masonry as per the specifications mentioned therein based on test conducted by CSMRS, Delhi on the time and agreed by all Committee members including the Kerala representative in the meeting of the Committee held on 9-10th February, 2001.”

A value was fixed for testing initially. Test was conducted. The result was agreed by all. But, the party who fixed the upper limit value for test, provide dissent note later. How can this dissent note can be accounted for. It was the reason why the Honourable Supreme Court considered the approval note of all other 6 experts except the expert from kerala and gave the verdict in the year 2006.

I am not a legal expert. But it is the 1st time I heard in my life that a verdict given by Honourable supreme Court can be cancelled and one more time the same case can be conducted. I am a layman in legal proceedings. To me, the Supreme Court is the top most authority and nothing else. After all, it was not a verdict given by a District Court or High Court. However, considering the great fear among the brothers and sisters of Kerala (even though it was hyped by their government and their media), I believe, we, the people of kerala & TN should await the final verdict one more time. So I, myself, will wait for the final verdict instead of listening to the statements of political parties and the animated scenes of graphics and cinemas.

Eventhough, your other comments relate with other persons, I feel to express my views on your other comments also.

1. Please note that the statement mentioned in your 1st comment was made by none other than the Advocate General of Kerala.
“While making statements in court on Dec 2 on the safety measures being taken by Kerala in the event of the dam's collapse, The advocate general of kerala had purportedly said three downstream dams of Idukki, Kulavamuvu and Cheruthoni could hold waters of Mullaperiyar”.
I am very sorry that it was not noticed by you who made that statement to the Honourable High Court of Kerala during the proceedings.

2. Regarding the new dam position, as per the information I have, the FRL of the proposed dam is +140.00ft from the river bed (50ft from river bed to the base of the dam; 90ft from the base of the dam to the FRL). The FRL of the Mullain Periyaar Dam is +202.00ft from the river bed (50ft from river bed to the base of the dam; 152ft from the base of the dam to the FRL). But the water can be diverted to TN through the tunnel only when it crosses the level of +156.00 ft from the river bed (50ft from river bed to the base of the dam; 104ft from the base of the dam to the Tapping Level in tunnel). For the sake of calculation, 62ft difference in the FRL for the distance of 650ft (200m as mentioned by you) is very common in that hilly region. Please tell us how the water can be diverted from the proposed dam location to the TN farmers who are completely dependant on these waters.

All the above calc is based on the information I have. If you have a contradict information to the above levels, please share with us along with the solution to divert the water to TN from the proposed dam position.

However, Can you answer me one simple question? If at all, new dam is constructed within 200m, why the old dam need to be demolished? Why the agreement need to be cancelled? Except one earlier post, I could not see no one said that the old dam can be retained eventhough the new dam is constructed (From this side of the mountain, Dr. A.P.J. Abdul kalam said that the old dam can be retained with its leese agreement valid and, If Kerala wants, they can build a new dam downstream side). Why no one in this forum except one person from the other side of the mountain did not voice this point. Why all of you are interested in demolishing the old dam only?

I am actually from the place near Madurai, TN. (A place where children are named after Pennycuick even today, the great English man who constructed the mighty dam). I came to the dam site once. Viewed the great dam (“The Periyar project, as it was then known, was widely considered well into the 20th Century as "one of the most extraordinary feats of engineering ever performed by man".-Source Wikipedia) and admired it greatly. Actually decided to settle in that place. Unfortunately, I believe its not possible due to the violence and mistreatment of Tamils in Kerala in the last few weeks.

My friend,
attacks are going on the 2 sides of our state border. The violence happens here in my state is not acceptable to me and I strongly condemn it.

In the same way, attacking the innocent Tamil Iyyappa Devotees coming there to Sabarimala and attacking the Tamil Plantation workers in Kerala also not acceptable. Its very sad that, till now, no action was taken on the other side of the mountain to stop these violences.

However, considering this forum is for discussing the technical issues only, better we shall discuss the technical things alone about this issue and leave the rest to the other forums.

Anyway thanks for your comments.

The links on which my above statements are based shall be shared to the interested if contacted in the following mail.
m.muthuselvan@gmail.com (m.muthuselvan@gmail.com) (m.muthuselvan@gmail.com (m.muthuselvan@gmail.com)).

Thank You.

Regards,
M. Muthu Selvan, M.E. (Struct)

From: vaisakhg [mailto:forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)]
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 2:31 PM
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar




Dear all,

I want to discuss some of the points raised in the previous discussions.

@ Hariharmuthu:

You tried to compare the dam with the architectural monuments like taj and so on. I am not able to understand your logic to compare these two.

"Now the Kerala high court also undergone research on this and finally

concluded that there is no problem for the life of the people." this statement you are making is absolute nonsense (sorry to say so)". You please read through the court proceedings and the affidavit filed by the state of kerala. please dont comment based on some statements made during the proceedings.

@ MMS:

the verdict from the apex court is now challenged by the state of kerala. Now it is suspended. Please wait for the final verdict from the court.

The studies upon which the court passed the verdict is not reliable in these grounds.
The baby dam alone is studied. the site specific seismic acceleration is not considered. they studied on the basis of general coefficient of 0.18g which is not acceptable for this scale of study where the dam area lies in a series of fault zones. The study had not done any independent study on the main dam. it assumed the main dam is safe after repairs. Even then the CWC analyzed the main dam only for 0.1g. they had just copied the reports of CWC for the main Dam. this is the reason why representative of Kerala wrote a descent note.

@selvakumar:

I am unable to understand what you meant by the statement "The dam constructed in the year 1895 when it constructed the place belongs to State of Travancore. But actually (???) it belongs to tamilnadu."

Tamilnadu only have a lease agreement. not ownership. even though they pretend otherwise.

Unlike the Mullaperiyar dam, idukki dam was tested for the maximum considered earthquakes. the design was done by russian engineers and shake table tests we conducted in IIT Roorkee (was not IIT then).

He also says "They are saying from new dam we will give enough water to tamil nadu. There lies their cunning mind. Periyar dam is in the height of 2709 ft to 2861 ft from sea level. From this the caves made and reaches water for tamilnadu. New dam has to be built at a height of 1853 ft."

This is either because he is unaware of the fact that the proposed new dam is only 200m downstream of the existing dam and the the water level is intented to be the same as the existing conditions. Or he is fabricating (sorry to say so) to back his arguments. the levels will not drop drastically in the terrain as he is claiming.

And regarding the doubts of the dimensions of the disaster that will follow the break of the dam, i invite you to visit the site and understand the situations. I am living in the down stream of the dam. If you are so sure about the safety of the dam, i request you to come to the villages d/s and stay here for a week (if you dare to come).

And all these should be read together with the the attacks on innocent keralites residing in Tamil Nadu and no steps are taken to stop such violence.

Yours truly,

Vaisakh G
http://vaisakhg.blogspot.com/
http://vaisakhg.googlepages.com
facebook.com/vaisakhg
+91 9656840794



On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 4:50 PM, selvakumar forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org) (forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)))> wrote:
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francis chacko
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:33 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

DEAR MR.BINU,

THE LIFE OF THE DAM AS CERTIFIED BY THE DESIGNER WAS 50 YEARS.
SOME HOW WITH CERTAIN RETROFIT MEASURES THE DAM SUSTAINED TILL NOW.

TAMIL NADU GOVT.SAYS IT IS SOUND AND STRONG.kERALA GOVT. SAYS THE DAM IS TO BE DE COMMISSIONED AND A NEW DAM IS TO BE BUILT.THERE ARE MIXED OPINIONS AMONG ENGINEERS.THE COURT ORDERED A COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ISSUE. AS PER THE MEDIA THE COMMITTEE IS HEADING FOR REPAIRS AND MAINTENANCE. THIS WILL BE KNOWN CLEARLY WHEN THE REPORT IS SU8BMITTED TO SUPREME COURT.

NOW WE ARE IN A CONFUSED STATE OF AFFAIRS.THE PEOPLE RESDING IN DOWN STREAM ARE VERY MUCH AFRAID.

THE ISSUE COULD HAVE BEEN SORTED OUT BY BILATERAL TALKS.IF THE COURT VERDICT WILL BE AGAINST THE WISHES OF ONE STATE.EVEN THEN THERE WILL BE PROBLEMS AND DISCONTENT BY THE OTHER STATE.

THE GENERAL PUBLIC SHOULD BE GIVEN AN ASSURANCE THAT THIS DAM WILL SUSTAIN FOR SO MANY YEARS.OR THE CENTRAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD SAY THAT THE DAM IS TO BE DECOMMISSIONED.

IT APPEARS THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN INVESTIGATION ARE NOT GIVING THEIR OPINION IMPARTIALLY AS ACCORDING TO MEDIA..

UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES GOVT OF INDIA SHOULD GET GLOBAL EXPERTS IN ANALYZING THE STABILITY OF STRUCTURE AND THEIR REPORT SHALL HOLD GOOD FOR BOTH THE STATES.WHATEVER BE THE CONSEQUENCES IT SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED.

WITH BEST WISHES,
K C FRANCIS

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 9:45 AM, binuvp <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
[quote]            A simple question to those who argue that the 145 years old dam is safe.............
If it is so, how long it cna be safe like this? Can this dam be immortal?
Will TamilNadu at any time in future agree that dam can be decommissioned?
Could any of the supporters of the dam answer this?
Binu

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 4:22 AM, MMS forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Binu,
It is nice to you in the SEFI forum.
If you want to discuss more on this issue you can mail me on this regard but I feel it should not be discussed in this forum.

_________________
G.PARTHASARATHY M.E. CEng(UK), MICE., MIE.,
CHENNAI
GPSARATHYY@GMAIL.COM


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:31 am    Post subject: Mullaperiyar Reply with quote

Dear members

In the absence of engineering drawings of the dam , a visual inspection of the dam site by experienced structural members can throw lot of light on the condition of dam
At least immediate measures if any can be attended to
Vasudevan
Original Message
From: Joseph.Kallolil
To: general@sefindia.org
ReplyTo: general@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar
Sent: Dec 17, 2011 7:35 PM

Dear members, any of the members have the access to Mullappariyar Dam engineering drawings? Do those drawings exist? I would appreciate if anybody can upload such technical information in this forum for healthy discussion. Here the question is not who owns what or who is having the right to do the required. The real question is whether the DAM IS SAFE. If it is not safe what are the measures that we can adopt to make it safe. Strengthening measures? Decommissioning of the existing and building a new one? Hope our senior experienced members can highlight on this issue (of course there were discussions on this earlier also, still it will be nice if we can discuss further with more accurrate technical information). Remember- on one side it is the lifeline of many and on the other side it is the question of real lives itself for so many, both are important if not eqaually. The time is running out, we have to come to a solution compromising on anything, but not on SAFETY. With best regards, Joseph J Kallolil Senior Structural Engineer, Doha, Qatar. Ph: +974 55974894 (Mob) +974 44620745 (Home) Subject: [SEFI] Re: Mullaperiyar From: forum@sefindia.org Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:24:27 +0530 To: general@sefindia.org -- Dear Members, The lies from kerala should be met strongly. The dam constructed in the year 1895 when it constructed the place belongs to State of Travancore. But actually it belongs to tamilnadu. But british govt. for the catchemnt area of 8000 acres of land it got lease from travancore state for Rs 40000 for 999 years. But they started in the year 1882 and completed by 1895. The Periyar river actually originating from tamilnadu. It is administered by tamilnadu. Dam belong to tamilnadu. But place belongs to kerala. The dam height is 152 ft. The cultivable land from this is 2,08,000 acres. Madurai, Theni, Ramanathapuram, sivaganga district agriculturists of 10 lacs where based on this dam. also 60 lacs people drinking water based on this dam. If this dam gets disturbed entire districts will become deserts. T
Vasudevan T S
CRUTHI Consultants Consortium (P) Ltd.,
204, "RAM LEELA MANSION",
2nd Main Road, 4th Bloc, Rajajinagar,
Bangalore - 560 010,
Karnataka, INDIA.

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