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news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012
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bhartigy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 2:39 pm    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:00 pm    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

Proffesor are arrested coz of their unavailability /no response to the court orders to attend. They are not charges of anything related to the Incident. On 8 Sep 2015 19:00, "alpa_sheth" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Not sure they are out as yet. My discussion with a top ranking IIT Roorkee official a couple of hours ago indicated they were not out as yet despite all efforts. Let's hope they are out by tonight.

regards,
Alpa



      abhy_vivek wrote:                Good to note that the professors are now out. But Let's Remember such situation can arise with any other fraternity members as well !! And he / she may not have back up of IIT / SEFI or any other organisation.


So let's come together, increase our strength and establish our credentials. Let's develop good young engineers. What happened in Surat, Kolkata and Delhi is known to every one (and was very very bad. . . only shows lack of good engineering ethics, and spoilt the name of noble profession in India).


The life of scapegoats almost got ruined . . . !!

      alpa_sheth wrote:                Hi All,

Completely agree with Vivek and Prof A R Chandrasekaran. We know how in some of the bridge failures Vivek has pointed out the real designers escaped punishment and blamed some underlings who went to jail instead.

]          
     



     


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

In an AutoCAD environment, in a private Ltd co., if the owner wants, he can put any of his engineer's name in the title block with out the engineer's know ledge. How the engineer will save himself?
Even otherwise also, when jobs are too many, he can't check all drawings. But his name is written in '' approval"box. If something goes wrong, you mean, he will receive a non-bailable warrant?



,  On 8 Sep 2015 19:00, "alpa_sheth" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Not sure they are out as yet. My discussion with a top ranking IIT Roorkee official a couple of hours ago indicated they were not out as yet despite all efforts. Let's hope they are out by tonight.

regards,
Alpa



      abhy_vivek wrote:                Good to note that the professors are now out. But Let's Remember such situation can arise with any other fraternity members as well !! And he / she may not have back up of IIT / SEFI or any other organisation.


So let's come together, increase our strength and establish our credentials. Let's develop good young engineers. What happened in Surat, Kolkata and Delhi is known to every one (and was very very bad. . . only shows lack of good engineering ethics, and spoilt the name of noble profession in India).


The life of scapegoats almost got ruined . . . !!

      alpa_sheth wrote:                Hi All,

Completely agree with Vivek and Prof A R Chandrasekaran. We know how in some of the bridge failures Vivek has pointed out the real designers escaped punishment and blamed some underlings who went to jail instead.

]          
     



     


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SATYAPAUL
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:37 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

i do agree with you.the construction agency shall be legally responsible for review of design,construction and maintenance for two years.chalta hai attitutde on the part of construction agency shall be curbed. thanks satya paul   On Wed, 09 Sep 2015 04:58:45 +0530 "chander.pawa"  wrote >                   It was a shocking news, without any technical investigation and consultation with an experienced and suitable independent person a decision like this should have been taken. I feel that now onwards the designer should keep a tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff. The attitude of the Labour and supervisory staff needs complete change and Chalta ha! Itne we kuch nahin hota! has to be wiped out completely.       > >  >  > --

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:17 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

dear sir, first mistake: court summons must be honoured. do not rely on softwares alone.All work done by use of softwares shall be checked manually.some times  over confidence leads to failures. in tender there shall be a clause that construction agency shall check the design of bridges,buildings  or any other structure at his own cost or some lump sum fee shall be fixed.thus double check is  introduced.contractor shall be responsible during construction and two years after completition of the  structure. regards satya paul On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 19:02:04 +0530 "alpa_sheth"  wrote >                   Hi All, >  > Completely agree with Vivek and Prof A R Chandrasekaran. We know how in some of the bridge failures  Vivek has pointed out the real designers escaped punishment and blamed some underlings who went to jail  instead.  >  > Let's look at the legal issue. It is not clear to me why they should arrest someone who is only charged  with something and not yet proved guilty. But I am also wondering why he did not attend the court  summons. Also, why did Prof Vipul Prakash (who is a v good engineer and was my classmate at Berkeley)  not take anticipatory bail (a non-bailable offence means that bail cannot be got from police station;  only a judge/judicial magistrate can give it) from the judiciary?  >  > Perhaps he was not guided well. I think the IIT should give legal support and advice as he is their  employee. After all, it reflects on the Institute too.  >  > I am assuming that as we speak he is already out on bail. But my advice to all practising engineers-  >  > a) Check all drawings yourself or a trusted person in your team with at least 15 years experience.  >  > b) If there is a problem, get legal advice ASAP! Pl do have a strong legal advisor as part of your  permanent group of consultants. Get your agreements vetted by them. Also discuss with them in case of  disputes with clients.  >  >  > I am beginning to believe that a good lawyer is as important to us as a good CA!! >  > regards, > Alpa  >  >  >  >       abhy_vivek wrote:                The email below is really upsetting and frightening,  too; it also points out many other things as below :- >  >  > 1) Just being good Engineer / Teacher is not sufficient, we should be firmly aware about the Legal  tricks and tactics (especially that go in Indian courts); and never hire a 'Busy' lawyer. Hire a lawyer  which is sincere for time and aware about recent legal provisions. >  >  > 2) Regarding the bridge failure and the series of enquiries we all are aware about the recent collapses  of bridges - at Surat, Kolkata (Ulta Danga bridge), DMRC and Chennai LG collapses, and how the  engineers escaped and passed on the blames to others. >  >  > 3) Lack of Unity among 'Structural Engineering' is getting exposed time and again. If something goes  wrong with 'Doctors' or 'Lawyers' or 'Taxi/Rickshaw drivers' they all come on the road, united . . .  have we such action from Structural Engineers any time, in any Nation . . . we believe that Structural  Engineer's are Intellectual and clean people among the Civil Engineering fraternity . . . but let's not  allow others to take disadvantage of this . . .  >  >  > Apart from Prof. VP there are many cases where Sincere and intellectual professors were arrested by  local corporations (for example for Bhuj Earthquake). . . why structural engineers / professors often  become scapegoat of the polluted system !!! >  >  > Let's once again all of us come together and on urgent basis 'sign' a letter of protest and circulate  it online, and present it before court through representatives of SEFI, located in Roorkee by Friday  11th Sept'15. Let's all ensure that no innocent structural engineer suffers because of loop holes /  mistakes in the system ! >  >  > Hoping for the Best  >  >  > Vivek Abhyankar > Mumbai >  >  >       prof.arc wrote:                It was shocking to me to read from TOI article that  Prof. Vipul Prakash of IIT-Roorkee has been arrested. > I know him personally, as also his family. Prof. VP has brilliant credentials - apart from being a  topper in BE,  > he did his Ph.D with distinction from University of California at Berkeley, USA. >  > The bridge had failed apparently due to faulty construction but to blame the designer is unkindest cut  of all > The bridge had no live load /no earthquake at that time and design cannot be blamed as he must have  used  > well tested commercial software or his own >  > probably, he was ill advised by his lawyers not to heed to original summons. That is why he must have  got > non-bailable arrest warrant now. >  > I think our Forum should debate the role of designer and what precautions one has to take > like never avoid summons to appear in court >  > I wish he gets relief very soon >  > His father, my former colleague, Prof. Anand Prakash must be greatly upset as also well wishers like me > So many of students of father and son must be members of SEFI >  > Let me hope that it is a very temporary set back >  > I have absolutely no doubt about Prof. VP's ability as a designer >  > ARC                 > >  >  > --

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sunil sodhai
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:23 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

one thing we should assure that we should consider implementation part
also giving good designs is not just enough we have to see the they
are properly implemented or not becuase we know that in construction
aspect is filled with only non technical parts engineers employed are
at very low wages how can you good quality engineer at low so while
designing this aspect should be considered becuase this is india and
not america or europe

On 9/8/15, chander.pawa <forum@sefindia.org> wrote:
Quote:
It was a shocking news, without any technical investigation and consultation
with an experienced and suitable independent person a decision like this
should have been taken. I feel that now onwards the  designer should keep a
tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff. The attitude
of the Labour and supervisory staff needs complete change and Chalta ha!
Itne we kuch nahin hota! has to be wiped out completely.








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rajesh_rastogi
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:17 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

It is alarming to all structural designers. There should be an institute to organize all structural designers. I personally support to have a unity among structural designers throughout nation. One more thing often comes to my mind that the mistake/fault of structural engineer seems to be unpardonable. Whereas in other sectors it is not so. If a patient dies due to doctors' fault, nothing can be done to the doctors because they keep sign their documents not to affect them even if patient dies. But we structural designers serve full life to do innovative designs are punished like criminals for doing one mistake. So keeping mum in this situation may be dangerous to all of us. Somebody should lead this matter. I am doing practice in NOIDA. If can do something in this regard, I will be happy to do so.


On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 1:16 PM, alpa_sheth <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Hi All,

Completely agree with Vivek and Prof A R Chandrasekaran. We know how in some of the bridge failures Vivek has pointed out the real designers escaped punishment and blamed some underlings who went to jail instead.

Let's look at the legal issue. It is not clear to me why they should arrest someone who is only charged with something and not yet proved guilty. But I am also wondering why he did not attend the court summons. Also, why did Prof Vipul Prakash (who is a v good engineer and was my classmate at Berkeley) not take anticipatory bail (a non-bailable offence means that bail cannot be got from police station; only a judge/judicial magistrate can give it) from the judiciary?

Perhaps he was not guided well. I think the IIT should give legal support and advice as he is their employee. After all, it reflects on the Institute too.

I am assuming that as we speak he is already out on bail. But my advice to all practising engineers-

a) Check all drawings yourself or a trusted person in your team with at least 15 years experience.

b) If there is a problem, get legal advice ASAP! Pl do have a strong legal advisor as part of your permanent group of consultants. Get your agreements vetted by them. Also discuss with them in case of disputes with clients.


I am beginning to believe that a good lawyer is as important to us as a good CA!!

regards,
Alpa



      abhy_vivek wrote:                The email below is really upsetting and frightening, too; it also points out many other things as below :-


1) Just being good Engineer / Teacher is not sufficient, we should be firmly aware about the Legal tricks and tactics (especially that go in Indian courts); and never hire a 'Busy' lawyer. Hire a lawyer which is sincere for time and aware about recent legal provisions.


2) Regarding the bridge failure and the series of enquiries we all are aware about the recent collapses of bridges - at Surat, Kolkata (Ulta Danga bridge), DMRC and Chennai LG collapses, and how the engineers escaped and passed on the blames to others.


3) Lack of Unity among 'Structural Engineering' is getting exposed time and again. If something goes wrong with 'Doctors' or 'Lawyers' or 'Taxi/Rickshaw drivers' they all come on the road, united . . . have we such action from Structural Engineers any time, in any Nation . . . we believe that Structural Engineer's are Intellectual and clean people among the Civil Engineering fraternity . . . but let's not allow others to take disadvantage of this . . .


Apart from Prof. VP there are many cases where Sincere and intellectual professors were arrested by local corporations (for example for Bhuj Earthquake). . . why structural engineers / professors often become scapegoat of the polluted system !!!


Let's once again all of us come together and on urgent basis 'sign' a letter of protest and circulate it online, and present it before court through representatives of SEFI, located in Roorkee by Friday 11th Sept'15. Let's all ensure that no innocent structural engineer suffers because of loop holes / mistakes in the system !


Hoping for the Best


Vivek Abhyankar
Mumbai


      prof.arc wrote:                It was shocking to me to read from TOI article that Prof. Vipul Prakash of IIT-Roorkee has been arrested.
I know him personally, as also his family. Prof. VP has brilliant credentials - apart from being a topper in BE,
he did his Ph.D with distinction from University of California at Berkeley, USA.

The bridge had failed apparently due to faulty construction but to blame the designer is unkindest cut of all
The bridge had no live load /no earthquake at that time and design cannot be blamed as he must have used
well tested commercial software or his own

probably, he was ill advised by his lawyers not to heed to original summons. That is why he must have got
non-bailable arrest warrant now.

I think our Forum should debate the role of designer and what precautions one has to take
like never avoid summons to appear in court

I wish he gets relief very soon

His father, my former colleague, Prof. Anand Prakash must be greatly upset as also well wishers like me
So many of students of father and son must be members of SEFI

Let me hope that it is a very temporary set back

I have absolutely no doubt about Prof. VP's ability as a designer

ARC          
     



     


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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is really disturbing that  senior professors of IITR are being arrested like this. May be, as suggested by Prof. ARC, they were arrested not because the design was found wrong but because they did not accept the court's summons. Hope and pray that they are out of jail soon after obtaining bail. In India cinema stars and political persons can get bail soon but it is difficult for educated persons to get bail as quickly as possible.


It is also surprising that IITR is not having a team of lawyers who can advice the professors effectively.

As pointed out by Er. Vivek there is no unity amoung engineers, unlike barbers, CAs, and others who will show their strength, when such a thing happens.

As usual we will never know the cause of this failure. These arrests are
done as an eyewash and the real persons who did the mistake will not be known.

God bless IITR professors.

Warm regards
Subramanian


N. Prabhakar wrote:
Dear Sefians,

It is a shocking news to read in today's newspapers about the arrest of two Professors of IIT, Roorkee, Prof. Vipul Prakash and Prof. V. K. Gupta, in connection with Tehri Bridge crash three years ago.  It is understood that Prof. Prakash had designed the bridge, and Prof. Gupta had done proof-checking of the design

It appears that a three-member Special Investigation Team (SIT) has conducted the probe.  Unless this team has members with experience in the design and construction of bridges, this probing of bridge collapse has no meaning, and it is only an easy way to blame everyone connected with it. The lawyers representing the Professors should ask for the credibility of SIT which has resulted arrest of the two professors.

As Prof. arc has rightly pointed out that the bridge had failed apparently due to faulty construction but to blame the designer is unkindest cut of all.  The bridge had no live load /no earthquake at that time, and even a lay man can say that faulty design cannot cause the collapse due to self-weight only.  

As Mr. Vivek Abhyankar has suggested, structural engineers of SEFI should make a protest about this unjustly arrest of two professors, and see that it doesn't happen again in future.

With best wishes,

N. Prabhakar
Chartered Structural Engineer
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:41 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

The brazen manner has shocked the intellectuals. We tend to believe that absence of proper concern & response to NBW was the reason for their arrest.
However , lakadaiskal approach to  building design, construction, supervision, material usage ,  record keeping and accountability all these aspects is the reason for civil structure failure. Graft payment that too hefty one in Government contract is another woeful aspect making civil structure weak and liable to fail. If it stands , it is because of multi level factor of safety.
I do believe that cursory structure design and it's implementation are also reasons leading to failure.  
While we wish the good luck to the concerned professors ,  we also wish that we show World Standards of designing and care & concerns for civil structure.  
Regards to all On 9 Sep 2015 05:00, "chander.pawa" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           It was a shocking news, without any technical investigation and consultation with an experienced and suitable independent person a decision like this should have been taken. I feel that now onwards the designer should keep a tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff. The attitude of the Labour and supervisory staff needs complete change and Chalta ha! Itne we kuch nahin hota! has to be wiped out completely.
     



     


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:42 am    Post subject: news item regarding bridge collapse in 2012 Reply with quote

From A K Bajaj  On 9 Sep 2015 05:00, "chander.pawa" <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           It was a shocking news, without any technical investigation and consultation with an experienced and suitable independent person a decision like this should have been taken. I feel that now onwards the designer should keep a tab on the site as well as the credentials of the site staff. The attitude of the Labour and supervisory staff needs complete change and Chalta ha! Itne we kuch nahin hota! has to be wiped out completely.
     



     


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