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Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy
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revanwaghode
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:40 am    Post subject: Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy Reply with quote

Dear Sefian,
This is really very ridiculous to see..a structural engineer begging and negotiating his fees..for structural safety and huge liability.This is happening because of our government policies.How a Architect is charging 4% of construction cost..and what kind of service they provide..are they punished for failuer of structure?? then how they can charge more.No strict rules followed by Govt.
See US ,they have developed very good procedure.
I think one more and major reason is seflish nature of we SE's who are taking lesser charges only to have more and more no of jobs than others....There is no unity among ourself.
There is no legal contract between Arch/Client mostly.No pre defined scope of work. Later for which we should be paid but as there is no responsibilities defined clearly client does not pay for our extra working hrs.
 
Regards
Abhay
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Pankaj Bhakkad <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear SEFIans,

I come along with the industry experience of 5 years and willing to start my own consultancy firm.
However when I discuss this with my seniors and colleagues who are in the same profession, I realized a genuine problem which I thought I should share with you.
I am not sure though if this is right place to put this question.

Now days, in Maharashtra cities like Pune, Nasik, and Aurangabad etc. fees structure for the structural consultancy is normally Rs 2/sqft for residential structures and Rs 3-5/sqft for commercial structures. But few well known consultancy firms are taking very minimal charges (even less than Rs 2/sqft) for their consultation in order to attract more customers and break the market rates.

Now with the similar profession, architect charge approx. 4% of construction cost. If we consider Rs 600-800/sqft construction cost then it goes to Rs 24-30/sqft for their consultation. Even local centering contractor charge Rs 50/sqft for his service.

I wanted to raise the question that how fair this is? How should a structural engineer take the structural responsibility with the less charges and still survive in the competition? How should one start his career in such a competitive environment?

I would highly appreciate if you share your thoughts and provide some guidance for the person like me.
Thanks in anticipation.

Best regards,
Pankaj





"Success is not permanent and failure is not final! So, never stop working after success and never stop trying after failure''










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pravin.pai
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 8:00 am    Post subject: Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy Reply with quote

Dear Sefians:
 
Ofcourse, without doubt, we SE's cannot charge abysmally low fees for our services and in todays value system there will always be fly-by-night engrs. offering their services at ridiculous low rates.

But the point I want to suggest to you in this is that today with computers and software at our command we can standardize and automate a very large part of our work leaving us free to involve ourselves with areas requireing our specialized attention. Though this is very much required for one-man and small SE firms, I find it is only the MNC's who have a budget and allocate man-hours for standardisation and R&D work but even medium level cos are woefully unaware of doing such things.
To give an example: an MNC had about 500 equipment fdn dwgs to be done for one of their project. They got a 'Programmed-drafting' s/w for this done and the job was done before the scheduled dates and with far less amount of man-hours spent.
 
The typical reply to invest in software is that it is costly. Yes it is costly when you compare it to what that hardware vendor of yours loads free-of-cost for you when you buy a machine. But when you pay for it in the long run it pays you back immensely by way of support and help etc. For example for AutoCAD there is only a one-time cost of about a lakh of rupees but after that if you sign in for the yearly Subscription services which costs about Rs 18,000/- or so you always have the latest s/w when released and also their support for your customisation. Now Rs 1500/= per month I think anybody can and should afford.

This is how FedEX (the courier company) in US have some 1000 aircrafts and equally large pilots on thier payroll, while Air India does not have even 100
 
Think about it,
 
Pravin Pai
 
 
 
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 11:24 PM, knsheth123 <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear Sefians
 
For this point raised by the young engineer, I would quote Prof. Habibullah, (UOS, Berkley, SAP-2000, ETAB fame) :
 " I would rather my son to be a building brocker than becoming a Structural Engineer. The Brockerage is more than 4 times  Engineers' fees. Once the deed is complete, his responsibity is over. For 1/4 of the fees, a Str. Engineer is responsible till he lives."
 
But the fact remains, once in the main stream, one has to swim.  
 
K. N. Sheth
 








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abhio
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Joined: 08 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a graduate member of the Institution of Structural Engineers (UK), and I regularly receive the journal "The Structural Engineer". SEFians may be amused to know that the same issue of fees regularly crops up in correspondence in this journal. So you see, the problem is not restricted to India alone.

However, in India, we are not only competing with other well-qualified professionals who give a decent service and are able to do it cheaply, but also with entirely unqualified charlatans giving something that may be positively dangerous to the owner who has to live in the structure.

The solution is not easy. definitely, legislation must be made more effective, and the word "engineer" must be defined precisely and its meaning jealously protected. Building control engineers must be made accountable for the approvals that they give to non-engineered or poorly engineered structures.

Finally, you and I, sirs - we must help each other raise the status of our profession and hold out for higher - may I say more realistic fees.
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Dr. N. Subramanian
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 5:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy Reply with quote

Hi Er Abhay,

This is a never ending topic. Not all the Architects are getting 4% of the project cost as fee. Many are under-quoting and getting anywhere between 1-4%. But as you have pointed out, with all the difficult job the engineer does, he is paid around 0.5% of the cost of the building (not the project)only. Of course the Architect is responsible for the failure of structure-since he/she may develop a system, which may be structurally deficient. I am not aware of any Architect who was punished by law for such mistakes.

In USA no one can work in any field without proper certification. Even engineers have to write SE or PE exams. But most of the builders (some hiding under the name of Developers) are not qualified engineers but  rewarded handsomely. Many times the problem arises out of their selfish attitude.

Regards,
NS  
revanwaghode wrote:
Dear Sefian,
This is really very ridiculous to see..a structural engineer begging and negotiating his fees..for structural safety and huge liability.This is happening because of our government policies.How a Architect is charging 4% of construction cost..and what kind of service they provide..are they punished for failuer of structure?? then how they can charge more.No strict rules followed by Govt.
See US ,they have developed very good procedure.
I think one more and major reason is seflish nature of we SE's who are taking lesser charges only to have more and more no of jobs than others....There is no unity among ourself.
There is no legal contract between Arch/Client mostly.No pre defined scope of work. Later for which we should be paid but as there is no responsibilities defined clearly client does not pay for our extra working hrs.

Regards
Abhay
On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 12:07 AM, Pankaj Bhakkad <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Dear SEFIans,

I come along with the industry experience of 5 years and willing to start my own consultancy firm.
However when I discuss this with my seniors and colleagues who are in the same profession, I realized a genuine problem which I thought I should share with you.
I am not sure though if this is right place to put this question.

Now days, in Maharashtra cities like Pune, Nasik, and Aurangabad etc. fees structure for the structural consultancy is normally Rs 2/sqft for residential structures and Rs 3-5/sqft for commercial structures. But few well known consultancy firms are taking very minimal charges (even less than Rs 2/sqft) for their consultation in order to attract more customers and break the market rates.

Now with the similar profession, architect charge approx. 4% of construction cost. If we consider Rs 600-800/sqft construction cost then it goes to Rs 24-30/sqft for their consultation. Even local centering contractor charge Rs 50/sqft for his service.

I wanted to raise the question that how fair this is? How should a structural engineer take the structural responsibility with the less charges and still survive in the competition? How should one start his career in such a competitive environment?

I would highly appreciate if you share your thoughts and provide some guidance for the person like me.
Thanks in anticipation.

Best regards,
Pankaj





"Success is not permanent and failure is not final! So, never stop working after success and never stop trying after failure''










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suraj
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:31 am    Post subject: Does an architect sign any structural drawing? Reply with quote

Does an architect sign any structural drawing?

I am sure that no architect would sign any structural design.

In case, any architect signs required drawings, law shall catch hold of that personnel in case of failure of built structure, in line with provisions of the Architect Act wherein, designated Architect has been designated as a Designer. It is also true that whenever, signatures are required, SEs do sign on Architect's requests.


Architect would not sign relevant drawings just to escape factor from possible prosecution.

Regards

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akashvihar
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy Reply with quote

[quote="Pankaj Bhakkad"]Dear SEFIans,

    dear sefians,
i think 1 % of total cost og buildong ( # 600 to 700  psft) is  feasible as now a day all responsibility of structure with eq. resistance is dumped on structural designers. Lot of structural designers or engineers are also responsible for trend of  very less fees ( about Rs.2.00 psft) as they work under architects and whatever architects offer they accept it for that even they sign on  papers as structural designer and gives structural design with thunbrules or as required by architects compromising safety & economy and also engineers dignity, but please note that now a days by law all structural responsibility including eq. resistance in dumped on structural designer. One point I want to note here that IS-456  clearly says that qualified engineers ( not architects) shall supervise the structure.
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jagadeshkannan
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi All,

I have as doubt in fees,

Structural consultancy fees for residential apartment is Rs.2/SFT

The above fees is for each and every floor or if the building has typical floors, then will it be accounted for only one floor?


Regards
JK
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jabirchoksi
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 11:44 am    Post subject: Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy Reply with quote

The above fees is of slab area / each floor
if it is typical it should consider no of floors multiply bby 2


On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 1:20 PM, jagadeshkannan <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
  Hi All,

I have as doubt in fees,

Structural consultancy fees for residential apartment is Rs.2/SFT

The above fees is for each and every floor or if the building has typical floors, then will it be accounted for only one floor?


Regards
JK







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ishkumarjain
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:38 pm    Post subject: [?? Probable Spam] Re: Fees Structure for Structural Consu Reply with quote

Respected Sir/ My dear friends
We are charging our fee on % basis not on sq feet basis.
1. When architects charge fees in % basis then why not we the Structural Designers & Consultants.
2. We must demand our fees in % basis.
3. One of our friend said architects association is very strong. My question is why not our association is strong ?
we have following institutions as association present for Civil Engineers lets come together and start some efforts in this regards.

Following institutions as association present for Civil Engineers
1. The Institution of Engineers (I)
2. Indian Water Works Association
3. Indian Society of Earthquake technology ( ISET)
4. Indian Association of Computational Mechanics (IACM)
5. Association of Consulting Civil Engineers (ACCE)
6. Civil Engineering Association
7. Indian Society of Civil Engineers
8. Builders Association of India (BAI)
9. The Indian society for Hydraulics (ISH)
10. Indian Institution of Bridge Engineers (IIBE0
11. The Indian Road Congress (IRC)
12. Indian Society for Wind Engineering, (ISWE)
13. Indian Concrete Institute (ICI)
14. International Association of Bridge and Structural Engineering (IABSE) India chapter
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
and many more  

Think & Create Strength  
We are the best people in India who understand the word "STRENGTH"

ISH JAIN    


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Quote:
----- Original Message -----
From: jagadeshkannan (forum@sefindia.org)
To: general@sefindia.org (general@sefindia.org)
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 1:20 PM
Subject: [?? Probable Spam] [SEFI] Re: Fees Structure for Structural Consultancy


Hi All,

I have as doubt in fees,

Structural consultancy fees for residential apartment is Rs.2/SFT

The above fees is for each and every floor or if the building has typical floors, then will it be accounted for only one floor?


Regards
JK






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suraj
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:14 am    Post subject: Structural Engineering Services Fee Reply with quote

Structural Engineering Services Fee

SEFI has developed as a voice of SEs tacitly.

More than 7000 public personnel already on roll that would augment to 15000 soon.

Charging fee is a good isue that can be finalised on this portal.

SEFI in itself is an association though not registered with registar of societies under Societies Act 1860 but that does not matter.

Any issue considered or decided on this forum does weigh.

When more than thousands do accept any issue, that has to be given due weightage.

What fee cost SEs need, is an issue to be decided by the SEs themselves.

Of course, guide lines can be constituted on this forum based on the views of the practitioners for the purpose of a minimum consideration.

Why should SEs depend on the other bodies to resolve the issue supposed to be resolved by themselves?

Should strength is to be staged, an initiative also has to be taken that has been missing so far.

This nation may not be having millions of practising SEs. Sooner or later, all would join SEFI.

When all agree on certain codes of fee charge as a minimum amount of percentage, automatically, that level of fee could be charged or leave the job for an unknown who would also leave to another unknown.

Architects' game would be defeated sooner when SEs are united although, it may take many couple of months.

What has to be decided may depend on the followings:


Structural designing jobs from architects

Total fee applicable for design at permit & other stages.

Fee for drawing production for permit.

Fee during construction for detailed drawings.

Fee for visiting for supervision.

Fee for BBS issue.

Fee for supervision if applicable.

Fee for stability & supervision.


For jobs upto 10 lakhs covering structural part, 2% + stationary charges+ transport charges

For jobs upto 25 lakhs covering structural part, 1.5% + stationary charges+ transport charges

For jobs upto 50 lakhs covering structural part, 1.25% + stationary charges+ transport charges

For jobs upto 100 lakhs covering structural part, 1% + stationary charges+ transport charges


Direct Clientage if feasible

Add 25% to foregoing


Direct Execution of Jobs 3 to 4.5 % of cost. Site support staff additional


Regards


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