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Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.
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Basharath
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Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:32 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Dear All,


I would suggest the following;
  1. The possibilities of collapse are many. As the pattern of failure may give an initial clue in respect of possible reasons of failure, I would totally avoid guess work and conclusions till the first factual report is out.
  2. Though extremely unfortunate, but proper study of every failure provides excellent opportunity to take lessons thus preventing future mishaps. If facts are not shared and lessons are not learnt the tragedy gets compounded, and in such a case no wake up calls would help at all.
  3. Forums like SEFI should play a very important role in all such tragic incidents. This can best be done by experienced and senior members from the local area gathering authentic information and sharing through this platform.
Syed Basharath Ali
TAMEER Consulting Associates
Hyderabad.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 11:17 AM, vikram.jeet <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Life is more precious than material consumption( in terms of steel kg/sq ft.)
Safety must take priority in design and construction and neglect of same
is criminal.
Soil testing, adequate foundations at firm founding level,sufficiency in
structural designing,ductile detailing in design must be followed with
vigilant supervision and QC.The attitude of site /construction Er to ignore
supervision due to wrong thinking regarding design -safety factors
must change .
It is good for SE to create economical design but if it is subject to
human errors ,not easily constructible, detailing mistake- prone,
no care for maintaining redundancies in structure may lead to
bad design .

Overloading ,unauthorised -extensions must be checked by the owners
as many of collapses are due to extensions in building for which these
are not planned.

Such news hurt everyone.

vikramjeet
--
     



     



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nachko
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Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:37 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Quote:
How to stop this?

RESPONSIBILITY is the answer, my friend. Not only us, the designers, but the contractors also should be responsible to the edge. As I usually say, every project that I complete increases my responsibility to the end of my life. Yeah, structural engineering is a tough occupation for tough people.

Greetings from Bulgaria.
AAT



-------- Оригинално писмо --------
От: "VPandya"
Относно: [SEFI] Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.
До: announcement@sefindia.org
Изпратено на: Петък, 2011, Януари 28 15:39:19 EET
     Dear SEFIN'S,

Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmedabad, killing 5 people and injuring many.
One of our SEFIN member from Gujarat, claimed that Gujarat has the best building plan checks in India. Human error is possible in the best building inspection department. But this collapse seen on TV looks like a house of playing cards failed.
I can not say more without having a professional engineers report but this kind
of collapse is a WAKE-UP CALL for us who are in this profession of Building Design
and Structural Engineering. Three months back we had similar story in Delhi where 80 people died. How many more? How to stop this?

Regards.

Vasudeo Pandya
Structural Engineer

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

sir thanks for the information

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 1:39 PM, VPandya <forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
Quote:
           Dear SEFIN'S,

Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmedabad, killing 5 people and injuring many.
One of our SEFIN member from Gujarat, claimed that Gujarat has the best building plan checks in India. Human error is possible in the best building inspection department. But this collapse seen on TV looks like a house of playing cards failed.
I can not say more without having a professional engineers report but this kind
of collapse is a WAKE-UP CALL for us who are in this profession of Building Design
and Structural Engineering. Three months back we had similar story in Delhi where 80 people died. How many more? How to stop this?

Regards.

Vasudeo Pandya
Structural Engineer
     



     


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Vinay Kumar
SEFI Member
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Joined: 10 Apr 2010
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:09 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Designing the building with requisite safety and using minimum material is  the duty of a structural engineer.
If the design is wrong, the assessment of loads is much on the lower side or the quality of construction is not up to the standard, the design norms can’t save the building.
There’s enough safety built in the design standards to take care of unknown factors.  
The failures are always there when nobody does his/her role properly.
An improper design performed by ignoring the design codes and constructed with sub standard material under inadequate supervision has all the reasons to collapse.
It is therefore the responsibility of all.
The small time builders don’t have proper designs nor do they use proper materials
It’s the owner’s responsibility to hire proper agencies and get the right work done.
It may sound sentimental but it’s a reality

Vinay Kumar  

From: vikram.jeet [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: 29 January 2011 11:18
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



Life is more precious than material consumption( in terms of steel kg/sq ft.)
Safety must take priority in design and construction and neglect of same
is criminal.
Soil testing, adequate foundations at firm founding level,sufficiency in
structural designing,ductile detailing in design must be followed with
vigilant supervision and QC.The attitude of site /construction Er to ignore
supervision due to wrong thinking regarding design -safety factors
must change .
It is good for SE to create economical design but if it is subject to
human errors ,not easily constructible, detailing mistake- prone,
no care for maintaining redundancies in structure may lead to
bad design .

Overloading ,unauthorised -extensions must be checked by the owners
as many of collapses are due to extensions in building for which these
are not planned.

Such news hurt everyone.

vikramjeet
-- ­­  





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Moazzam
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Joined: 27 Jan 2011
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Yes you perfectly right, this mentality, that experience makes a lot has to be demoted, since most of the contractors are not fallowing the drawings 100%, just they see the experience and neglect the codes.


From: s.mishra22 <forum@sefindia.org>
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Sent: Sat, 29 January, 2011 8:46:25 AM
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.

     Dear All,

It is really pathetic to come across all these accidents thee days. Nothing can be pointed at the root-shell. But I think the contractors and builders in most of the places across the country are not following the proffesional code of conduct. Lack of supervision and value engineering awareness will cause these sort of problems.

I have seen most of the cases, where non-engineering professionals carry out the structural work at the site roughly. They argue on this point that experience counts a lot. But I think this type of mentality should not be kept at ego point at the cost of human lives.

Regards

Soumyajit




On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 9:01 AM, hiavinash forum@sefindia.org)> wrote:
      --auto removed--

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hameed mohamed younus
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Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

I have not heard of bore hole test done and its report being studied and the foundation is calculated
Curing time also not taken into account
At each level of roof casting there must be a engineer go thru the columns and columns concrete lab test report to be reviewed
Hameed    

From: PRADIPTA MOHAPATRA [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:20 PM
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.


The collapse during construction indicates
01. Design failure due to foundation on soil
02.The failure of the scaffolding perpetuating the collapse.
03. An accident of sort causing the failure of one or more columns at the Ground level.

All these raises a question can Govt.control Private Construction ,is a Structural Engineer given free hands to oversee all the works, or the construction is in the hands of General people who donot take Enginnering seriously!

This is perehaps a debate which needs to be addressed.

P.Mohapatra.
Structural Engineer
BUILDSOL.    
--auto removed--

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hameed mohamed younus
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Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

You are right – I would like to contact you personally as I need a contact in Hyderabad  
Skype: hameedyounus
Mobile: 00966502884535 please give a miss call I will call you back

hameed


From: Basharath [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 1:18 PM
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.


Dear All,


I would suggest the following;  
<![if !supportLists]>1. <![endif]>The possibilities of collapse are many. As the pattern of failure may give an initial clue in respect of possible reasons of failure, I would totally avoid guess work and conclusions till the first factual report is out.  
<![if !supportLists]>2. <![endif]>Though extremely unfortunate, but proper study of every failure provides excellent opportunity to take lessons thus preventing future mishaps. If facts are not shared and lessons are not learnt the tragedy gets compounded, and in such a case no wake up calls would help at all.  
<![if !supportLists]>3. <![endif]>Forums like SEFI should play a very important role in all such tragic incidents. This can best be done by experienced and senior members from the local area gathering authentic information and sharing through this platform.  
Syed Basharath Ali
TAMEER Consulting Associates
Hyderabad.

On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 11:17 AM, vikram.jeet forum@sefindia.org (forum@sefindia.org))> wrote:    
--auto removed--

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mitalsanghvi
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Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:07 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

AHMEDABAD: What could happen to a building which had negligible plinth beams and faulty horizontal tie beams - it will collapse in no time. These two structures are basic requirements for providing solid structural support to a multi-storied building. The building in Saudagar ni pol was devoid of these.

Besides AMC engineers, industrial safety experts who inspected the site claim that the builder Bata brothers had provided a cantilever extension of the building of seven feet-which was not welded properly. Use of the poor quality steel and the water tank had together amplified the instability and had caused the collapse.

Senior officials also pointed out that the foundation of the building was never designed to hold the weight of a four-storey structure. "It came to our notice that all the four floors came up at different times and that each floor had contributed its bit to the instability of the building," says a senior AMC official.

Residents have even pointed out that till last year they were drawing water from the seven underground tanks where the collapsed building stood.

But then the collapse throws open a major debate on the safety standards of residential construction in the walled city. A major loophole that has been pointed out is that nowhere in the 5 sq km walled city area are buildings required to leave any margin space-which was also the case in the Saudagar-ni-pol collapse. This means that a builder working on a new construction can dig into the adjoining plot and even take support of the neighboring building! This puts the stability of both the buildings in jeopardy. This was an episode that was repeated in the Shakun hotel building collapse in 2008 in Kalupur station area.

While another major loophole has been the December 2007 gazette notification pertaining to 'T' girders in the walled city. It is under the garb of this law that hordes of illegal construction have come up in the walled city. "Builders quote the notification and show on paper that they are conducting repairs in a heritage pol house. They pull down the building first and then legalise the new building by paying a fine. The law actually has a clause in the end which states that a fine can help you legalise a building," says a senior officer of the AMC's central zone office.

Read more: Building was waiting to collapse - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Building-was-waiting-to-collapse/articleshow/7382129.cms#ixzz1CQBj9moV


From: bharatthej [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 3:54 PM
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



I need to admit. Unlike other nations here most of the decision making tasks during concept design is with the architects than the structural engineers. Typically a builder (contracting) agency have a set of architects with a valid stamp and all they manipulate during concept design for municipal approval is to reduce the taxation and layout planning as per the regulations. They hardly look about the safety which i guess with a structural engineer intervention can be resolved. I am going for a startup as a structural engineering consultant , but this is the primary problem i faced.

Contractor will not care even if u are a charted engineer. A set of municipal licensed engineers will do for him.


Either the architects have to strictly recommend him for a quality structural engineer or the govt. of india should take a initiative to pay way for equal roll for engineers with architects during the design.

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mitalsanghvi
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:09 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

AHMEDABAD: The collapsed building in Saudagar ni Pol brought to the fore not only the faulty structure of the pillars there, but also the issue of rampant illegal constructions in the area and the 'selective' negligence of government officials towards checking this practice.

Residents of this pol in Kalupur area of the walled city had several times made representations to Ahmedabad Municipal Corporation (AMC) officials stating that the building in lane number 16 of the pol was being built illegally and posed a danger to the lives of those staying around.

The first complaint, as per the AMC's central zone complaint register was received in July 2009 by residents who said that the three Bata brothers - Salim, Hanif and Munaf - were illegally constructing a building in their area.

After this complaint, more than 10 other representations were made to AMC's central zone office by several residents, but the civic body ignored them all. In fact, on Thursday and Friday, AMC received 13 complaints of illegal construction in the area. Residents after losing all hope for action by AMC met the builders a couple of times and requested them to stop construction but were threatened of dire consequences if they made an issue of the building.

"The building was built adjacent to my house. I met Salim three months back as the building was pushing my top floor wall inside and it started cracking. But he forced me to shift out of my house till the time construction was complete and then they razed the top floor of my house so I couldn't complain about it," said 60-year-old Abid Kapadia, who was forced to stay at his in-laws' house in Shahpur for the last three months.

"Amne lagyu ke bhukamp che," said Junaid Pathan, who stays 500 metres away from the building collapse site. This was the common refrain amongst the residents of Saudargar ni Pol. "Almost everybody in the pol rushed out of the house as vibration after the building collapse made it felt like there was an earthquake. Some of the residents who were at a distance from the collapse site even jumped off their windows," said Ilias Patangwala, 50, a resident of the pol.

Residents, who on Friday cornered AMC mayor Asit Vora, allege that the Bata brothers and a couple of other builders operating in the area, hand-in-glove with AMC officials, have the protection of local corporators and history-sheeter Mehbood Mogal alias Mehbood Senior, who is currently lodged in Sabarmati Jail. "More than 10 of the 20 illegally built three-four storey buildings constructed after 2008 have tilted and are waiting to collapse. Even if these structures are now demolished they will damage the houses around as they are built in narrow lanes," said Jaffar Shaikh, who lost his brother Mohammad Kadir, 20, in the building collapse.

Read more: Living in AMC's neglect - The Times of India http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Living-in-AMCs-neglect/articleshow/7382128.cms#ixzz1CQCM4fCm

From: bharatthej [mailto:forum@sefindia.org]
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 3:54 PM
To: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.



I need to admit. Unlike other nations here most of the decision making tasks during concept design is with the architects than the structural engineers. Typically a builder (contracting) agency have a set of architects with a valid stamp and all they manipulate during concept design for municipal approval is to reduce the taxation and layout planning as per the regulations. They hardly look about the safety which i guess with a structural engineer intervention can be resolved. I am going for a startup as a structural engineering consultant , but this is the primary problem i faced.

Contractor will not care even if u are a charted engineer. A set of municipal licensed engineers will do for him.


Either the architects have to strictly recommend him for a quality structural engineer or the govt. of india should take a initiative to pay way for equal roll for engineers with architects during the design.

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Vishal_Desai
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:33 am    Post subject: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda. Reply with quote

Dear all, being a structural engineer I believe it is the responsibility of the designer to supervise if his designs are being executed according to the drawings and construction quality is maintained. Blaming the contractors is not a solution. Rather than taking 10 different jobs and not supervising any it is more practical to take fees for supervision and appoint someone who will keep quality check. This system will prove beneficial to even the contractors who sometimes are not strong technically.Regards,Vishal Desai.
- from VodafoneFrom: "PRADIPTA MOHAPATRA" <forum@sefindia.org>
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 15:50:18 +0530
To: <announcement@sefindia.org>
ReplyTo: announcement@sefindia.org
Subject: [SEFI] Re: Today's 28/01/2011 collapse of 5 story building in Ahmeda.

     The collapse during construction indicates  01. Design failure due to foundation on soil 02.The failure of the scaffolding perpetuating the collapse. 03. An accident of sort causing the failure of one or more columns at the Ground level.  All these raises a question can Govt.control Private Construction ,is a Structural Engineer given free hands to oversee all the works, or the construction is in the hands of General people who donot take Enginnering seriously!  This is perehaps a debate which needs to be addressed.  P.Mohapatra. Structural Engineer BUILDSOL.        --auto removed--

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